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Old August 18th, 2008, 03:59 PM
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T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
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Default Re: D-Day November 1942

Quote:
Originally Posted by von Rundstedt View Post
T.A Gardner I have already studied a map of the Quiberon Bay, which part of the bay are you talking about the outer exposed bay itself or the inner sheltered harbour, i would like you to find out what the prevailing winter weather patterns are aspecially related to the Mid-Atlantic and North Sea storms, and their effect when they collide in the channel, not only the storms but height of the waves, currents, tidal effects, winds (and their intensity).
Then do what I did. Get a couple of navigation charts for the area and look at those. Next, you can get tide and weather information from sailing instructions and notes by the NOAA (yes, I took a year's worth of courses on naval navigation). The historical convoy route from the US was reminisent of Columbus' voyage in reverse. They used a great circle route to south of the Azores (under Allied control) and then instead of going to North Africa in this scenario they would turn North and head to France. There is alot less U-boat activity on that route as but one advantage of it.
This area is little effected by the more massive storms of the North Atlantic due to it being in the doldrums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by von Rundstedt View Post
What after all that the effect of the amphibous troops would be, how many would be lost in landings, how many would be stricken with sea sickness.
The same as it historically was with them landing in North Africa, on D-Day, or anywhere else. They came ashore and took care of business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by von Rundstedt View Post
You mentioned a so called division (German) in the area at the time, name it and can you list it's TO&E at the time. Seriously not one panzer in the area, not one tank destroyer, or one 88mm dual purpose gun, no anti tank gun, not one aircraft, not one U-Boat (Especially with the Germans having Brest just a few k's up the coast) in the entire Brittany area, nothing nadda, zippo, zilch absolutely nothing, this intregues me.
The one division guarding this part of the coast is the 333rd Infantry. It's responsibility runs from about Lorient to St. Nazarie. This was the division that fought the commando raid on the later when the HMS Campbelton blew up the locks to prevent docking the Bismarck there.

The unit TO&E is:

Grenadier regs 679, 680, 681
Artillery reg 333
Auxiliary units numbered 333

It has no orgainc antiaircraft battalion. Its only air defense is the 2cm AA company in the antitank battalion.

Its home station is Wkr III. It was formed 14th wave in January 1941. All personnel are essentially draftees. The unit suffered periodic drafts of men sent to other divisions as replacements. These were replaced by new conscripts and often men of lower quality ratings.
This is not uncommon with the Germans. They saw this division as being in a quiet sector of France and unlikely to be engaged.


Quote:
Originally Posted by von Rundstedt View Post
So after the Allies have managed to overcome the local weather patterns, currents, winds, rain and anything i can think of and overcome horrific sea sickness and losses in sunken landing craft, manage to land not only a full armoured division but support troops, supplies (enough to counter any future disruption due to weather conditions).
Yes. They would be able to defeat the one thinly spread German division. Taking Belle Ile and Quiberon gives them three small ports and a huge safe anchorage to deliver supplies to the troops ashore. Like at Normandy or, in the Pacific, the Allies can simply use landing craft to run much of their supplies ashore. They can also dock ships and use DUKW trucks to supplement this.
Bringing in pontoons to build additional docks or to use as lighters would also be an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by von Rundstedt View Post
Not only that they face absolutely no opposition, none what so ever, no U-Boat attack, No aircraft attack, no attempt by German army units to repulse the invasion, and not only that but overcome local opposition but can in effect launch offensive operations, totally un-opposed, six allied division are going to march all the way to Berlin un-opposed.
There aren't that many German aircraft in the area. The only two units that are really a threat to naval traffic are KG 100 and Fleiger Fuhrer Atlantik with about 30 to 40 aircraft between them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by von Rundstedt View Post
You mentioned Anzio and Salerno, yes the Germans did throw in a lot but were completely overwhelmed, by that stage they had lost air supremacy over Italian Skies, they had no large naval units in the area, they had been kicked out of North Africa with the loss of hundreds of thousands of POW's, being smashed in the east, losing the partisan war in Yugoslavia.
Overwhelmed at Salerno?!! They threw in the 16th Pz, 26th Pz, 29th PzGr, 15th PzGr, Hermann Göring Panzer among other units against three Allied infantry divisions supported by one brigade of British 7th Armored division. They lost and lost badly. 16th Panzer was on the landing beaches when the Allies came ashore. There was no preinvasion bombardment so the unit was intact. Yet, it was thrown out of its positions.
They had air parity as Salerno was at the edge of Allied land based fighter cover and the Allies had no carrier aircraft available.
The Italians were still in the war and their fleet was largely intact. But, it lacked fuel to move for the most part.

At Anzio they again managed to get better than a one to one ratio of troops surrounding that beachhead. The Allies had initially just two divisions ashore. They tried two major offensives to destroy that beachhead and both failed miserably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by von Rundstedt View Post
But you fail to mention that at the time of the Quiberon Bay assault yes the Germans had been battered in the east but they still at the time had not lost one battle, essentially they (the armed forces was essentially still intact, not one German division had yet to be destroyed) in the field.
Hardly. The Germans entered their 1942 summer offensive (the one AGS makes against Stalingrad and the Caucausus) in poor shape. Panzer divisions in the East have only one battalion of tanks on average except for those in AGS half of which have two and one has three. They were short nearly 250,000 men on establishment and only AGS had infantry divisions close to full strength. Most divisions had been cut down to two battalions per regiment from their establishment three (the Type 44 division didn't exist yet).
They had a severe shortage of both trucks and horses. To support AGS all divisions elsewhere were largely stripped of their transport to provide enough trucks to get three Grosstransportraum units for motor transport of supply in AGS.
Whether you think they were winning or losing is irrelevant. The Germans at the end of 1942 were in bad shape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by von Rundstedt View Post
Naval gunfire is unstoppable, yes it is, imagine on the first night of the landings during the day that several battleships are sunk or heavily damaged and are forced to withdraw, second night of action two or three aircraft carriers are also attacked and are forced to withdraw, then without the heavy units (they being withdrawn as they are to vulnerable to U-Boats) the Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau are brought in to hammer the cruisers and destroyers, this is in conjunction with the U-Boats attacking en masse the transports.
Sunk or damaged by what? U-boats will take time to get there. Even when they do there are just three or four battleships present with the same number of carriers out of well over 100 ships present. They are not anchored, and they are escorted.
As for the German surface fleet: Tirpitz is in Norway. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are in Germany and undergoing repairs. Even if all three could go to sea they have to either traverse the North Sea then the Channel and then the Bay of Biscay to get to the fight, or they have to go into the Atlantic through the Iceland gap and then south to the Bay of Biscay. This means bringing several unrep ships along. It also means no escorts.
In either case this suggestion is simply ludicrious. There is no way the Germans could put three capital ships into the area whatsoever. They would be sunk enroute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by von Rundstedt View Post
In the end this exercise has to go absolutely to the allies way without any mistakes, and absolutely no action by German land, sea or air units, they the allies are totally un-opposed.

v.R
No, the Allies get ashore. They dig in and a temporary stalemate ensues for the next six or so months. There is heavy fighting periodically during this period. In the East the loss of units now fighting in France makes a 1943 come back for the Germans impossible. They are forced onto the defensive and lose more ground than historically.
In North Africa Rommel's forces are partially withdrawn and the reminant defeated. The Allied prisoner bag is much smaller than historical.
The French throw in with the Allies forcing the Germans to invade and take Vichy France pulling more troops West. The Vichy French fight so this invasion and conquest takes weeks and alot of troops to complete.
Italy is still threatened in the Med now that Axis forces are defeated in North Africa.
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