That is correct , John Clark , arrived in Buchenwald on august 20th 1944 with 167 other allied airmen directly from Fresnes, Fresnes is only 50 km from his crash place near Etampes. He was betrayed by Dessoubrie. John Clark (there was also a Don Clark) had camp registration number 78385.

__________________

LIEGE is not too far , but your claim is north east of it which would be the German border near Eupen rather than Limburg, near Aachen and Maastricht. We are talking about 50km 100km here. If there is no identified crash site south of Limburg, it could be a candidate, but is Von Bonnin's claim around 1 am?

__________________

Skipper,

Thank you...I will ask and see what he knows. I will post after the call.

Jo Ann

ok back to the drawing boards.......

Bake 01:10
Barte 01:12
Kollack 01:00
Htpm Wohlers 01:05

will search further, probably will have to make a plot map of some sort ..... for accuracy

__________________
E ~

Erich and Skipper,

I will re-check what my Uncle said and William Bailey about the times. I think there was mention of 1:00 and 1:15. I will ask my Uncle too if there was an actual time noted. (Did he look at his watch!) Yesterday he said there were 2 ME-110 firing at him. Maybe the length of time from begining of the firing to when they had to bail out.

Just a thought.

Jo Ann

Called my Uncle...He is busy today and asked me to call tomorrow.

I am working on information I am getting from the Limburg Province Line (I am still learning about this information and as soon as I understand more I will be able to explain more.) On my to do list for today!

Jo Ann

OK, cheers I will do some reading too and will probably have more tomorrow.

__________________

the sinister fly in the ointment. German Luftwaffe crews will report the area of which the RAF aircraft was engaged and shot down but not where it crashed, so this is something that must be expected and the difficulty in finding a positive is just that ..........

E ~

__________________
E ~

Ok...here goes.

This is from the Limburg line information:

William Bailey (crewman) with my Uncle.

William Bailey

11/06/1943:
Mathieu Van Esser, a miller living in Molenbeersel, and a few other men stood outdoors to look the passing planes, flying in the direction of Germany. At about 01.00 hours they saw that the Germans shot down once again a plane. It crashed in the neighbourhood of Ophoven. They saw 4 parachutes coming from the skies. The airman, after landing, disappeared in a cornfield.
12 /06/1943
The German soldiers had also seen them and searched, in the morning of 12/06/1943, the surrounding farms.
A few corporation workmen found one of the aviators in a reed-plot situated “Op het Goor” (Ophoven-Molenbeersel) They came to ask me if I could take care of him. At about 08.00 o’clock in the morning of 12/06/1943 I was led to the aviator. It was an Englishman, fully dressed in uniform. He spoke a little French and explained me his situation. I hided him behing the “Lossing”-brook in some brushwood and promised him to take him away at 13.00 hours in the afternoon. He gave me a little bag with money in it: 300 Belgian francs, 25 Dutch guldens and some French francs. I told him te keep the money, because he would need it on his trip to London.
At 13.00 hours I returned to the brushwood with a blue overall and a pair of wooden clogs. He changed clothes and we left for the dairy factory in Kinrooi
At the dairy factory in Kinrooi I phoned Louis Vallé, a butcher and cattle dealer in Bree
Louis Vallé was willing to help the aviator. A few hours later he arrived with two bicycles. I helped the airman on the bike, but he could not cycle… I gave him a little push and off they went towards Bree.
(thus Mathieu Van Esser in a letter to J. Bussels, dated 30/07/1976.
J. Bussels published: De doodstraf als risico. Pilotenhulp in Belgisch Limburg. 1941-1944, 1981)
In 2 letters, dated 30/07/1976 and 15/04/1978 (to J. Bussels), William Bailey wrote: “I don’t know the place where I landed. It was not so far from Bree. Mr. Vallé came to fetch me. Together we biked to his home in Bree. Mr. Vallé was about 40-50 years old. He had two sons. The Vallé family were my first helpers.”
Louis Vallé and Fons Bergmans were good friends who had confidence in each other.
Fons Bergmans, born in Weert (Holland) lived in Bree and ran a pub and a pastry-shop in the Kloosterstraat 23. During wartime he became courier in the “Luctor et Emergo”-line between Holland and Brussels.
Louis Vallé visited Fons Bergmans to ask what he had to do with William Bailey. Fons Bergmans had no immediate solution. William Bailey was transfered to the Bergmans’ house where he had to wait several days. Then came Jan Wannée (cover name for Jan Dijkstra), a Dutch courier, to take Bailey to Brussels.
William Bailey (letter d.d. 30/07/1976 to J. Bussels) wrote: “I left Bree on Thursday 24/06/1943 at 17.30 hours. A man, about 40 years old was my guide. He spoke Englih very well. First we travelled by tramcar, later by train to Brussels. At 22.00 hours we arrived. I stayed at several places, in Brussels until 27/06/1943. This day I left, on my own, for Neerwinden. Here I stayed at a castle with 5 jews and two Russians. After the Germans searched the castle I moved back to Brussels. On 13/09/1943 I finally departed for England via Bergen (Mons) and Paris. I arrived in England on 05/11/1943.

I will edit with where it came from...


http://www.erfgoedeisden.be/pagina's/colofon.htm
The Eisden Heritage Trust

Sent to me by Robert Dexters (He is the son of the man (who found my Uncle), Giesbert H. Dexters and the nephew to the Doctor, Albert Dexters, who provided the medical attention and removed the 34 pieces of shrapnel from my Uncle.

Erich,

I have a map of Limburg Province that was sent to me to look up the areas, (before names were changed) I can put that into my gallery or email.

Let me know.

Jo Ann

My Uncle saw the pictures tonight. He identified "The Captain" as - DeZitter, the picture from:
http://home.clara.net/clinchy/neeball.htm
www.belgiumww2.info


My Uncle is almost positive that the picture of Dessoubrie is "The British Agent" that travelled with the group to Paris.

My Uncle said that the picture of Flore Dings looks like "The Captain's" girlfriend. He said that she was dark skinned. Hard to tell in the B/W picture.

He has been thinking about "The Group" that travelled to Paris from Brussels and remembers a total of nine in the group:

Himself
4 Unknown named Airmen
John "Smitty" Smith (Comete Kinship Line has his information)
The female Doctor
The man calling himself the British Agent
The Guide
(Comete Kinship Line lists Sgt.William Cole and W/O Frank Hugo as arrested the same day) (www.belgiumww2.info listed an Sgt Bill Cole and W/O Frank Hugo and additional W/O Arthur William Edgley and W/O Sidney J. Maxed also arrested the same day)
BTW I am communicating with both sites on the information.

So who is the man that interrogated my Uncle every week in Fresnes and broke his collar bone...tonight my Uncle said that the man was very "Anti-Social!" At least he has a sense of humor about it!

He is ready for more questions....very happy! I call tomorrow!

Hello ,

When i checked out the book " Luftwaffe Nightfighters claims " by Foreman-Matthews and Parry i saw that Lt Baake Werner from 1/NJG 1 shot down a Wellington 1k m north of Neeroeteren Belgium.The place were Wellington HZ-355 came down Ophoven is just north of Neeroeteren.So we can assume that Baake shot down this arcraft and not Kollak.I hope that i was able to help with this little info

Greetings
Alain57
Belgium

Hi Alain, Thank you for helping. It would be interesting to find out the exact crash site. Were there two or one Wellingtons in those two villages? the one listed in Ophoven is at the location "op de Goor".

Jo Ann, more about dessoubrie: I know much more of this scenario. Dessoubrie was very well dressed in a neatly cut suit with expensive shoes and drove his own black Citroen Traction, he also had a red Simca and smoked Luxury cigarettes. He had many mistresses, but one of these was a beautiful lady called Mme Orsini. This woman was in her mid 40s and had gorgeous red hair. She would sometimes escort airmen from a small apartment in Paris (I can find the addres if needed) and would sometimes give them a kiss to allow the Gestapo to find out who to arrest. Dessoubrie usually took the name tags away so that most airmen could not prove they were soldiers. He never interrogated airmen himsself however. Sometimes they were loaded in a truck and taken directly to the Gestapo HQ. I don't have any details about the SD interrogator.

__________________

Skipper,

He described the "British Agent" to me as "Stocky, "heavy-set" and from what I understand that wouldn't be Desoubrie.

I will ask my Uncle if he remembers a red-haired woman. That would be in Paris, right?

My Uncle joked last night about remembering the women a lot, said he was a typical guy!

My Uncle kept the pictures to go over them more.

Jo Ann

Alain,

Thank you for looking and adding information. I sent you a message.

Jo Ann

Yes that was in Paris. He was Belgian and she was French. Dessoubrie would however travel through the whole of Northern France to catch his preys. He was seen in Beauvais, Normandy, Chartres, Paris and many other places.

__________________

Skipper,

Thanks. I will look up more on him today before I call my Uncle. It is also my understanding that he did not work with DeZitter that anyone knows about. But if both were communicating with the Gestapo (or the German Police) then arrangements could be made then in Paris once DeZitter was done in Brussels.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Sorry about so many questions!

Jo Ann

Skipper,

I found some information in the book:

Silent Heroes: Downed Airmen and the French Underground by Sherri Greene Ottis

States that Desoubrie did work as a guide from Brussels to Paris for a time in June 1943.

My mistake.

Jo Ann

Apparently both Dessoubrie and de Zitter have worked for the Germans much earlier. They were both around in 1943 that's for sure. Apparently he settled in France in 1943-44 and concentrated on the French Resitance whereas de Zitter would concentrate on the Belgian branch.

__________________

Skipper, Erich and Alain,

I looked up Werner Baake. It appears there were 2 Wellington's from Squadron 429 shot down the same night in the area.

HF-542
"Serial range HF513 - HF545. 33 Wellington Mk.X. HF452-HF606, 118 Wellington Mk.X, delivered by Vickers (Chester) in May and June 1943. Part of a batch of 1100 Wellington Mk.1C/111/X/X11/X1V. HD942-HF606. For the full list of this large batch refer to Record No.6135. HF542 was one of three 429 Sqdn Wellingtons lost on this operation. See: HE593; HZ235. Airborne 2308 11Jun43 from East Moor. Shot down by a night-fighter (Lt Werner Baake, 1./NJG1) and crashed 0110 at Westendorp (Gelderland), 8 km ESE of Doetinchem, Holland. Three are buried in Wisch (Varsseveld) General Cemetery and the other two have no known graves. P/O R.P.Davies RCAF KIA Sgt D.E.Campbell RCAF KIA Sgt R.Zeidel RCAF KIA Sgt L.P.R.Taillefer RCAF KIA Sgt A.J.Maclachlan RCAF KIA "
Lost Bombers Site

Thank you guys for the information and I will get it to my Uncle.

This site talks about excavations of the HF-542 and claims also Werner Baake which is not my Uncle's HZ-355. RAF Wellington MkX HF 543 AL-O

May never know for sure.

Jo Ann

The above one isn't your uncle's either, that place is near Arnhem in Holland. Kollack is still my best candidate.

__________________

Skipper,

Mine too.

The above site seems to have information on that particular crash (Not my Uncles') and has where and when the men were buried (2 were buried and they did not find the other 2).

Jo Ann

Hi all ,

I checked out something more , that night 11/12 june two Wellingtons were lost over Belgium. HE-184 was claimed by Kollak over Westkapelle , a village near the Belgian coast and crashed in the Northsea. Three crewman washed up on Belgian and Dutch shores, so therefore we can be sure about this.Westkapelle and Ophoven is about 200 km from each other.
I will contact a friend of mine who lives in the Ophoven area and see if he has something more about this event.

Greetings
Alain57
Belgium

Alain,

Nice! This might help!!!!!

Okay, I have a bit of news too. I am transcribing my interview with my Uncle that I did in 2000 (Hubby just digitized it from Video and put on the computer for me) and he is extremely detailed over the air fight that he was in with the two ME-110's. He shot one down! (I am holding my arm out extended for you guys to slap it! I should have gone over this before.) I will quickly get what I have down. I have written scribbles right now, just getting to the part where he is telling the pilot about evasive action.

well be on guard literally about the LW losses/claims book by Perry, many errors included. Boitens work coming sometime will fill in the blanks ...........maybe

for 11/12 June 43 the losses are thus :

3 losses

Bf 110G-4 from 12./NJG 1 at ? hours shot down by flak, both crewmen KIA
code G9+DZ southeast of Büssum

Ju 88C-6 from 11./NJG 3 coded D5+NV pilot wounded two other crewmen unhurt. 10 km southwest of Herning 9 Denmark) on a bad landing approach with the left engine shutting down. 01.20 hours

Bf 110G-4 from 12./NJG 1 over Gilze-Rijen Holland airfield. both crewmen wounded. coded G9+AZ. 110G-4 crashed on landing.............so could this be a possible candidate ??......... maybe. crash due to enemy action.

side note in my data from Freiburg Archiv's : Werner Baake is given two kills for this night.

__________________
E ~