Royal Navy Question

Stevin · #1 (**permalink**) August 24th, 2003, 02:20 PM

I am researching the 300+ war dead on Amsterdam's Nieuwe oosterbegraafplaats (New Easter Cemetery).

These is one Royal Navy man buried here:

Able Seaman HAROLD RICHARD WAYMAN (D/JX267728)
who died on Saturday 6 December 1941.

The CWGC site says he was stationed on H.M.S. President III, Royal Navy, but his gravemarker says S.S. Greenland.

I can't find anything on-line on either of these two ships and where they were early december 1941.

Has anyone any info on either one of these two ships?

TIA

Stevin

.

Steve · #2 (**permalink**) August 24th, 2003, 02:53 PM

HI Stevin, The HMS President II was not a ship but a naval training base with a ships name. Check out this site for more info:
http://www.british-merchant-navy.co.uk/DEMS.htm

Steve · #3 (**permalink**) August 24th, 2003, 02:56 PM

As far as the SS Greenland I have come across one other sailor with the same date of death so I would assume the ship was sunk.
http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/roh/467.htm

Steve · #4 (**permalink**) August 24th, 2003, 03:07 PM

More info on the SS Greenland. Was in service with the Merchant Marine in 1917 when she was torpedoed. Sank the German sub U68 in 1918.

Stevin · #5 (**permalink**) August 24th, 2003, 03:51 PM

Thanks Steve! Merchant Navy, then...

Able Seaman Wayman was Royal Navy. Maybe he was stationed on a merchant vessel as some kind of gunner?? My knowledge of (merchant) Navy is nill. Have to look into this to see if this was at all done; Navy people on merchant ships.

Thanks for the links, Steve. Apparantly the S.S. Greenland went down somewhere on december 6, 1941 and Wayman's body washed ashore in the Netherlands. Just strange that he is buried in Amsterdam, as he most probably would have washed up on the west coast and would have been buried there.

You have given me a few leads to follow up on! Thanks again!

[ 24. August 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]

No.9 · #6 (**permalink**) September 4th, 2003, 03:02 AM

Stev- off topic - I see Ajax play Milan on the 16th at the San Siro? Think I'll go to that one if I can get a ticket, else I'll have to make do with Milan v Bologna the Sunday before.

I'm off to the airport in a few hours so I won't catch your reply. Will try and log on when away, but little chance.

Bye y'all.

No.9

I'll be back!

[ 03. September 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: No.9 ]

Stevin · #7 (**permalink**) September 5th, 2003, 12:50 PM

Yes, Milan....Again

Milan is a great team to play against. Favorites of course. Ajax and Milan have had their battles. Should be a great game. I hope so. Ajax is not the same team as yesteryear. Several key players gone. Some promising new players, but the Milan game might come to soon. On the other hand; lets's get the thoughest game first...

Beats Milan - Bologna, No.9!!

And...may the best team win...

No.9 · #8 (**permalink**) September 24th, 2003, 11:24 PM

Well, well......here we is again. Milan won 1-0 but no great game.

First match of the Champion's League and some nerves and silly moves showing. Overall Milan played better - though that's not saying a lot. The Ajax keeper stooped the ball on the ground then let it roll out of his grasp right towards Inzaghi, who had an open goal

Mrs 9 insisted he kicked it out of the keeper's hands, till I showed her the video - 3 times.

Milan keeper made a similar poor stop early on in the game but got away with it. However, at the end of the match he produced an exception save which restored his credibility - it really was that good, everyone though it would go in

Little Gattuso (the Poison Dwarf) got Red Carded, incredibly, and current flavour of the moment for the crowd seems to be Kaka, new signing from Sao Paulo. Odd because in Italian dialect, 'kaka' means cr@p???

Oh yes, and a few days before Milan beat Bologna, of course.

No.9

Stevin · #9 (**permalink**) September 25th, 2003, 06:26 AM

Hi No. 9, Glad you could make it for the game! It certainly wasn't one to remember. The field was not what we are used to in Milan, but these things happen and both teams suffered.

The game wasn't great but in all honesty I didn't think Ajax was any less than Milan. Milan was more 'italian' in their finishing; they scored. Ajax did have some changes to even the score, especially van der Vaart, just before the end. :OOPS: Inzaghi showed he is the killer he is. That guy always seems to score, even out of nowhere.

All in all disappointed to have lost but also a loss that was more or less calculated. the way Ajax played gives us hope for the rest of the 5 games. Milan is of course favorite in this group. They shouldn't have to have much trouble getting through.

Now Club Brugge....Milan against Celta should be interesting too....

Are you coming over to Amsterdam for the Ajax - Milan game too, No.9!?

No.9 · #10 (**permalink**) September 25th, 2003, 08:42 PM

Absolutly right Stev, the field was in bad condition. A bit hard to understand considering all the money Milan have - they could lay a new pitch for every game!

Milan will need to tighten-up their game if they want to get to the final stages. Too many casual passes - even from Shevchenko, which is not usual? Mrs 9 thought man-of-the-match was Seedorf, but I give it to Martin Laursen.

I'd love to go to Amsterdam for the return game, but I should conserve money for a while.

No.9

The_Historian · #11 (**permalink**) January 10th, 2004, 11:28 PM

Stevin,
Think I'm right in saying that the D/ in your man's serial number indicates he was nominally based at Devonport, England. Don't know if it helps your research any though.

Regards,
Gordon

Deep Web Diver · #12 (**permalink**) January 11th, 2004, 06:56 PM

Thank you for posting the photo of Seaman Wayman's grave, Stevin.

This is a challenging question alright. I've been trying to research this one, and only come up with the same information already noted above, by Steve which indicates that Able Seaman Wayman was apparently a Royal Navy gunner stationed aboard the Merchant Navy vessel Greenland, and that the Greenland sank on December 6, 1941 at an unknown position.

There may be additional information available either at the Public Records Office or the Tower Hill Memorial.

[ 11. January 2004, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Crapgame ]

The_Historian · #13 (**permalink**) January 12th, 2004, 02:10 PM

Stevin,
If you can get hold of the following book, it might answer your question:
HMSO British Vessels Lost at Sea 1939-45 (2nd ed.)
(London. Patrick Stephens Ltd. 1983).
This work lists ALL British Naval and Merchant Navy vessels lost world wide in WW2.

Regards,
Gordon

T. A. Gardner · #14 (**permalink**) January 12th, 2004, 02:54 PM

Try asking these folks. I'd be willing to bet you get an answer to your question or at least some excellent leads..

http://www.warship.org/

Stevin · #15 (**permalink**) January 15th, 2004, 09:26 PM

Thanks Crapgame, Gordon and T.A.!

I haven't been able to find anymore on the Greenland or Able Seaman Wayman, but am still on it. Your info has been very helpfull.

Also haven't found anything yet on the posting of RN personel on Merchant ship.

At least the position gives food for thought and Devonport another lead! I can only assume his body washed up on the Dutch coast some time after the sinking. I know of several airman that were lost over the North Sea, only to be found sometimes several weeks later way north of their last known position. Strong currents in the North Sea.

I VERY MUCH appreciate all your efforts and help in this one. When I find more, I will post. In the meantime, I am still researching the lives and times of the 300+ Allied soldiers buried here in Amsterdam. Got a interesting e-mail exchange going with the archivist from Brasnose College, Oxford about P/O Barlow of 115 Sqn, KIA in 1942.

I have photographed all the graves here in Amsterdam and getting info in all the time. I hope to post it all on my site sometime soon.

Thanks again guys! It is appreciated!

[ 15. January 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]

Deep Web Diver · #16 (**permalink**) January 21st, 2004, 08:32 AM

You're welcome Stevin!

Good work Gordon!

The_Historian · #17 (**permalink**) January 21st, 2004, 11:32 AM

Stevin,
The National Library of Scotland in Edinburgh has the following document in it's public reading room;
Return of shipping casualties and deaths (1948), published (I think) by the Maritime Board of Trade.
I have no idea whether this is an annual report, or a compilation done since the 1936 edition, and which includes sinkings from WW2. I'll try to get through to Edinburgh and have a look, and see if there's any info. on the Greenland.

Regards,
Gordon

Stevin · #18 (**permalink**) January 21st, 2004, 01:28 PM

Hi Gordon,

I would greatly appreciate any info on Wayman or SS Greenland, but would feel a bit awkward if you went all the way there just for my benefit. Problem with Wayman is that I don't know where he is from so I can't really start looking for relatives.

I did find some info on Devonport, though. BIG Naval base.

[ 21. January 2004, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]

The_Historian · #19 (**permalink**) January 21st, 2004, 01:54 PM

Hi Stevin,
No probs-Edinburgh's only an hour away, and the Greenland stuff (sort of) fits in with research I'm doing on shipping losses anyway.
I discovered that the NLS has around 50 titles on shipwrecks, quite a few of which are official publications. I need to get through to see if they're any good to me, so it's not really out of the way.
I'll keep you posted.

Regards,
Gordon

The_Historian · #20 (**permalink**) January 21st, 2004, 02:32 PM

Stevin,
Did a further bit of delving and got the following.
HMS President III was actually an accounting base covering Bristol, Windsor and London, as well as a training depot. It was established on 28/8/39 at Clark's College, 15 Whiteladies Rd., Bristol. It was the HQ for all navy personnel allocated for service in Defensively Equipped Merchant Ships. Accounts were transferred to Dedworth Manor, Windsor from 1/5/41-45, and also Hodgson House, Eton College.
So Wayman was probably based at Devonport, but his pay office was either Bristol or Windsor, depending on when he joined.

SOURCE
Lt. Cmdr. B. Warlow, RN. Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy (2nd Ed). (Liskeard. Maritime Books.2000)p113.

My local library has a copy of the Army Roll of Honour 1939-45 CD ROM, the WW2 equivalent of Soldiers Died in the Great War. This should give Wayman's date of birth, address on enlistment and next of kin. I'll keep you posted on that too.

Regards,
Gordon

[ 21. January 2004, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]

Stevin · #21 (**permalink**) January 22nd, 2004, 02:51 PM

Thanks again, Gordon! This case intrigues me. Though sources in Holland are non-existant. I hope to visit to Amsterdam archives in the next two weeks or so and get info on the burial of A/S Wayman from that source.

Do you think a RN man will be on an Army Roll of Honour?? If he is it would be great to learn his DoB and his last know address.

Again, thanks for all your help in on this one, Gordon. I was at a loss where to look for info on this guy, him being RN and all. Air Force and Army are usually not a problem, but RN. And he is the only RN in Amsterdam. I photographed the graves of several in Rotterdam, which is understandable, as that is a seaport-city. One guy there from a MTB that was sunk off Terschelling (WAY to the North), in an exchange with S-boote, if I remember correctly. Sorry to say that that info was lost recently in a crash...

The_Historian · #22 (**permalink**) January 22nd, 2004, 03:25 PM

Stevin,
I stand corrected; the army roll of honour is exactly that. Don't know why I assumed it was a general database!(slinks into corner and hides.......) [img]redface.gif[/img]
Anyway, I'm still going to try and look at that list in the National Library I told you about. It might throw some fresh light on the subject (notwithstanding my own stupidity, of course)

I found the following list of Public Record Office files which might help:
Admiralty series;
ADM 53-Ship's logs.
ADM 104- Medical Depts; Service Registers of Deaths and Injuries.
ADM 187 War of 1939-45, Pink List. Printed sheets showing the stations and voyages of HM and Allied ships. Issued at 2-3 days intervals.
CM4- Directorate of Defence Services I(Army); Graves and cemetery files.These relate to maintenance of UK graves and cemeteries at home and abroad. Some files relate to Navy personnel.
Ministry of Transport series
MT 59-Shipping Control and Operations;Correspondence & Papers
MT 63-Port & Transit
MT 65-Statistics.
If you access the National Archive's website (www.pro.gov.uk/ will still work),you'll see a list of accredited independent researchers.
Most of these guys will come and go on fees if you're financially embarassed at the moment-the last one I used did.

Regards,
Gordon

[ 22. January 2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]