For bf109 Emil who asked this,

"I have a question pertaining to the Atlantic battle...the USA gave Britian i believe 50 destroyers in exchange for a number of ports or bases for 99 years...in 2039 these bases revert back to the British Commonwealth, much the same as Hong Kong was turned over to China...does anyone know which ports, the USN will lose, and how this will effect the balance of sea-power, and logistics within the world after 2039??? i listed a post about this, but i believe the agreement was for 99 years, but maybe i was wrong, can someone maybe enlighten??"

Here is the Destroyers for Bases Agreement, 2 September 1940

The Secretary of State (Hull) to the British Ambassador (Lothian)
Excellency:

I have received your note of September 2, 1940, of which the text is as follows:

I have the honour under instructions from His Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to inform you that in view of the friendly and sympathetic interest of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom in the national security of the United States and their desire to strengthen the ability of the United States to cooperate effectively with the other nations of the Americas in the defence of the Western Hemisphere, His Majesty's Government will secure the grant to the Government of the United States, freely and without consideration, of the lease for immediate Establishment and use of naval and air bases and facilities for entrance thereto and the operation and protection thereof, on the Avalon Peninsula and on the southern coast of Newfoundland, and on the east coast and on the Great Bay of Bermuda.

Furthermore, in view of the above and in view of the desire of the United States to acquire additional air and naval bases in the Caribbean and in British Guiana, and without endeavouring to place a monetary or commercial value upon the many tangible and intangible rights and properties involved, His Majesty's Government will make available to the United States for immediate establishment and use naval and air bases and facilities for entrance thereto and the operation and protection thereof, on the eastern side of the Bahamas, the southern coast of Jamaica, the western coast of St. Lucia, the west coast of Trinidad in the Gulf of Paria, in the island of Antigua and in British Guiana within fifty miles of Georgetown, in exchange for naval and military equipment and material which the United States Government will transfer to His Majesty's Government.

All the bases and facilities referred to in the preceding paragraphs will be leased to the United States for a period of ninety- nine years, free from all rent and charges other than such compensation to be mutually agreed on to be paid by the United States in order to compensate the owners of private property for loss by expropriation or damage arising out of the establishment of the bases and facilities in question.

His Majesty's Government, in the leases to be agreed upon, will grant to the United States for the period of the leases all the rights, power, and authority within the bases leased, and within the limits of the territorial waters and air spaces adjacent to or in the vicinity of such bases, necessary to provide access to and defence of such bases, and appropriate provisions for their control.

Without prejudice to the above-mentioned rights of the United States authorities and their jurisdiction within the leased areas, the adjustment and reconciliation between the jurisdiction of the authorities of the United States within these areas and the jurisdiction of the authorities of the territories in which these areas are situated, shall be determined by common agreement.

The exact location and bounds of the aforesaid bases, the necessary seaward, coast and anti-aircraft defences, the location of sufficient military garrisons, stores and other necessary auxiliary facilities shall be determined by common agreement. His Majesty's Government are prepared to designate immediately experts to meet with experts of the United States for these purposes. Should these experts be unable to agree in any particular situation, except in the case of Newfoundland and Bermuda, the matter shall be settled by the Secretary of State of the United States and His Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.

I am directed by the President to reply to your note as follows: The Government of the United States appreciates the declarations and the generous action of His Majesty's Government as contained in your communication which are destined to enhance the national security of the United States and greatly to strengthen its ability to cooperate effectively with the other nations of the Americas in the defense of the Western Hemisphere. It therefore gladly accepts the proposals.

The Government of the United States will immediately designate experts to meet with experts designated by His Majesty's Government to determine upon the exact location of the naval and air bases mentioned in your communication under acknowledgment.

In consideration of the declarations above quoted, the Government of the United States will immediately transfer to His Majesty's Government fifty United States Navy' destroyers generally referred to as the twelve hundred-ton type.

Accept, Excellency, the renewed assurances of my highest consideration.

Cordell Hull
His Excellency
The Right Honorable The Marquess of Lothian, C. H.,
British Ambassador.

Destroyers for Bases Agreement, 1941

__________________
For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

The bases.

Antigua - Naval Air Station, Sea Plane Base
British Guiana - Naval Air Station, Sea Plane Base
Jamaica - Naval Air Station, Sea Plane Base
St. Lucia - Naval Air Station, Sea Plane Base
Bermuda - Naval Air Station, Sea Plane Base
Newfoundland - Three Army Air Force Bases (Pepperell, Goose Bay and Stephenville), Naval Operating Base Argentia and numerous Marine and Army Bases and Detachments, 88 in total
Trinidad - Naval Operating Base, Naval Air Station, Sea Plane Base, Lighter Than Air (Blimp) Base and Radio Station

Destroyers For Bases Deal

__________________
For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

I also suspect that none of these is currently a US operational base and all are closed.

__________________
Truth is stranger than bullshit!

As of 2004:

Antigua - Naval Air Station, Sea Plane Base---Coolidge AFB closed, Antigua Air Station remains open on a part of the old base.
British Guiana - Naval Air Station, Sea Plane Base - -Lease terminated 1966 now Cheddi Jagan International Airport
Jamaica - Naval Air Station, Sea Plane Base Closed 1949
St. Lucia - Naval Air Station, Sea Plane Base Beane AFB closed 1949
Bermuda - Naval Air Station, Sea Plane Base NAS Bermuda closed 1995
Newfoundland - Three Army Air Force Bases (Pepperell, Goose Bay and Stephenville), Naval Operating Base Argentia and numerous Marine and Army Bases and Detachments, 88 in total Ernest Harmon AFB closed 1966, McAndrew AFB tranferred to Navy closed 1994, Pepperell AFB closed 1961
Trinidad - Naval Operating Base, Naval Air Station, Sea Plane Base, Lighter Than Air (Blimp) Base and Radio Station Carlsen AFB closed 1949


These Closed 1949
Atkinsion AFB, British Guiana
Beane AFB, St. Lucia
Carlsen AFB, Trinidad
Coolidge AFB, Antigua
Vernam AFB, Jamaica
Waller AFB, Trinidad

__________________
Best Regards,
JW

Thanks Jeff!! That answers that .

__________________
For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

As regards the Argentia, Newfoundland base, it was still a very active USN submarine base, into the early 1990's. Had a average base population of about 6,000 USN and USMC personnel.

I have a friend whose father was one of the first Newfoundlanders to be hired at that base, in 1943, as a plumber. He stayed on utill he retired in 1980. He was paid in US dollars and was allowed to shop at the PX, and his kids attended the base school, and used all the base recreation facilities, such as the pool and movie theatre. He gets a USN pension now and has VA medical rights.

The base was returned to Canadian control in 1995, and WE ARE STILL CLEANING IT UP. Huge amounts of PCBs and other chemicals are still being removed from the soil there. The US Government has refused to pay for any of that clean up.

Cornerbrook and Goose Bay/Happy Valley are now Canadian airports and during the North American aviation "shut down " after the September 11th attacks, they were knee deep in commercial air planes, that had been diverted from their original USA destinations.

We called it ........ " Twenty Five thousand people are dropping in for dinner and staying for 4 days ". In typical Newfie style they fed and housed thousands of complete strangers, with great big smiles and no whining.

Jim Bunting. Toronto.

Thanks Jim. Hope folks remember this next time it gets tough.

__________________
I forgot my password, can I use yours?

Yeah , I do too, BUT most Americans are so mis-informed about Canada that I won't hold my breath.

In my 30 year CF military career, I spent about 6 years in total, on secondments with the US Army, and most of that time I spent trying to educate the local people, on my own time, about Canada. The level of general knowledge, about their biggest trading partner and closest ally was abysmal. What little was known , was either wrong or thirty years out of date.

Try this..........Take a look at the CNN weather map, and notice that in Canada there are NO cities, no rivers and NO provincial boundaries, either. Just a big blank space. A further point..... Not ONE American newspaper, tv network, or magazine has a "Canadian office ", or even one reporter that works in Canada, on a full time basis. Could that explain the lack of knowledge ?

Jim Bunting. Toronto. Up here in the twilight zone ........

Someone mention Goose Bay? Is that the Goose Bay oft frequented by UK forces for training still to this day?

As for the 50 destroyers, the territories would be slightly unhappy if USA got into talks regarding their soil being handed back to Britain. Although its a great idea, cheap holidays again. A bigger question on the destroyers would surely be did we in fact physically need them at the time or did Winni have other intentions with the request for them.

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

URGH:

Goose Bay is the airfield that NATO forces use to fly into the interior of Labrador, to do low level high speed training, whch cannot be done in Europe, due to the massive restrictions placed by the EU. Wainright Alberta is the CF base used for long range artillery fire exercises, again to get past EU regulations. The British Army maintains a year round staff there to do up keep on their guns and vehicles .

Cold Lake Alberta is the CF's fighter aircraft training school and lots of EU and or NATO flyers go there to train. The annual Red Flag North exercise is held there each winter.

Alll of the bases in that deal are now closed and the land is returned to local control.

The 50 old WW1 USN destroyers were clapped out and in some cases, they never went to sea at all. One that was sea worthy didn't have a very long RN career, she was renamed HMS Campbelltown, and was used in the St Navare raid. She was filled with Torpex HE and was driven into the lock gates, and later blown up, by a time delay device, killing a large number of Nazi officers who were on board, taking photos of her.

Yes they were a gift but not a very useable gift as it turned out. On the other hand the land deal was a really good deal for the US, as it allowed them to expand their range on the east coast and in the Carribbean. Long after WW2 ended , the USN had a submarine listening post at Bimini in the Bahamas that could "hear " a really long distance across the Atlantic.

Jim Bunting. Toronto.

HUH!?!?

You either have not read much about these ships or you are letting your zealous nationalism direct your postings again.

You made the claim, now back it up. Name one of these destroyers that did not go to sea. With the exception of HMS Cameron (ex USS Welles DD257) which was heavily damaged in an air raid in Portsmouth, England, all saw combat action.

BTW, it is St Nazaire, not St Navare.

__________________
Best Regards,
JW

I would like to know too.

Forty-three initially went to the Royal Navy and seven to the Royal Canadian Navy. In the Commonwealth navies the ships were named after towns, and were therefore known as the Town class, although they had originally belonged to three ship classes (the Caldwell, Wickes , and Clemson classes). Before the end of the war, nine others served with the RCN.
Five of the Town class destroyers were manned by crews of the Royal Norwegian Navy, with the survivors later returned to the RN. HMS Campbeltown was crewed by Royal Netherlands Navy before her assignment to carry commandos on the St. Nazaire Raid. Nine others were transferred to the Soviet Navy.
Six of the 50 were lost when torpedoed by U-boats and three others, including Campbeltown, were lost in other circumstances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroy...ases_Agreement

__________________
For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

Caldwell-class destroyers

• USS Conner became HMS Leeds on 23 October 1940. She was scrapped on 19 January 1949.
• USS Conway became HMS Lewes on 23 October 1940. She outlived all of her sisters in British service and was stripped of valuable scrap and scuttled off Sydney, Australia on 25 May 1946.
• USS Stockton became HMS Ludlow on 23 October 1940; stripped and beached as a target for rocket firing aircraft off Fidra Island, United Kingdom.

Wickes-class destroyers

• USS Aaron Ward became HMS Castleton on 9 September 1940. She was scrapped on 2 January 1948.
• USS Abbot became HMS Charlestown on 23 September 1940. She was scrapped on 3 December 1948.
• USS Buchanan became HMS Campbeltown on 9 September 1940. She was destroyed in Operation Chariot on 29 March 1942.
• USS Claxton became HMS Salisbury on 5 December 1940; she was employed as a special escort for specific convoys, including escorting Wasp during the supply of Spitfires to Malta. She was scrapped in the US in April 1945.
• USS Cowell became HMS Brighton on 23 Sept. 1940; transferred to the Soviet Union as Zharki on 16 July 1944; returned to the Royal Navy on 4 March 1949. She was scrapped on 18 May 1949.
• USS Crowninshield became HMS Chelsea on 9 September 1940; transferred to the Soviet Union as Dzerki on 16 July 1944; returned to the Royal Navy on 24 June 1949. She was scrapped on 27 July 1949.
• USS Doran became HMS St Marys on 23 September 1940. She was scrapped in December 1945.
• USS Evans became HMS Mansfield on 23 October 1940; heavily involved in the critical convoy actions of March 1943 with convoy HS-229, landing survivors in the United Kingdom; sold on 24 October 1944 for scrapping.
• USS Fairfax became HMS Richmond on 26 November 1940; transferred to the Soviet Union as Zhivuchi on 16 June 1944; returned to the Royal Navy on 26 June 1949. She was scrapped on 29 June 1949.
• USS Foote became HMS Roxborough on 23 September 1940; while with convoy HX-222 Roxborough met with such heavy weather that the entire bridge structure was crushed, with eleven dead, including the Commanding Officer and 1st Lieutenant; the sole surviving executive officer managed to regain control of the ship, and under hand steering from aft, she made St. John's, Newfoundland; was transferred to the Soviet Union as Doblestnyi on 10 August 1944; returned to the Royal Navy on 7 February 1949. She was scrapped on 14 May 1949.
• USS Hale became HMS Caldwell on 9 September 1940. She was scrapped on 7 June 1945.
• USS Haraden became HMCS Columbia on 24 September 1940. She was scrapped on 7 August 1945.
• USS Hopewell became HMS Bath on 23 September 1940; while escorting her sixth convoy (OG-71) between Liverpool and Gibraltar, Bath was torpedoed by U-204 on 19 August 1941 and sank rapidly.
• USS Kalk became HMCS Hamilton on 23 September 1940; lost while being towed to Boston for scrapping in 1945.
• USS MacKenzie became HMCS Annapolis on 29 September 1940; towed to Boston for scrapping on 22 June 1945.
• USS Maddox became HMS Georgetown on 23 September 1940; transferred to the Soviet Union as Zhostki in August 1944; returned to the Royal Navy on 9 September 1952. She was scrapped on