It’s such a long time. But 60 years ago, about now, the Battle of Normandy was nearly over; it was a savage and bloodthirsty affair. Not for the meek and mild of this World.

The culmination of this battle, was for all intents and purposes, the Falaise Pocket. My company happened to be at the back of the "Bag" driving the German forces towards the 'pure hell' that awaited them as they ran “helter skelter” through the narrowing "Neck" of this mighty trap

In that savage enclosure, this huge iron trap, could be seen the sheer murderous, and overwhelming bloody carnage of "Falaise"

For all the detractors of ‘Monty’ Now came the “Payback” for after his patience, his steady strategy of pursuing the “Downgrading” of the SS Panzers. It all paid off in the devastating culmination of that much criticised strategy.

Now! Descended on the enemy a colossal hammer blow. Here could be seen the full implications of the Victory in Normandy. Death stalked the country roads and lanes of central and Eastern Normandy. For those inside, there was no hiding place.

The utter ruthlessness of the G.O.C. of the Allies, in prosecuting the death and destruction of this mass of SS Panzers and Panzer Grenadiers. An army put to death in that great trap. Savaged mercilessly by artillery, and by Air, where the rocket firing Typhoons took a terrible toll

The stench of death, the mass of bodies, and parts of bodies, the masses of armour and artillery completely destroyed, the horses that had run amok under this wall of drenching fire, from both land and air. All these scenes of indescribable horror went on for miles. Yet, we only observed that area that we chased the Enemy through. It was not possible to see all of it.
Still! Would you believe? After this total vindication of his strategy, The utter ruthlessness of his Victory ahead of the planned programme, Monty was still criticised.
Sapper

Brian,

Speaking of Falaise...curious about one thing...in your experience, how effective were the Typhoons on Axis armour? I hear people rant and rave that they were the nightmare of the panzer corps but some others say they only achieved single digit accuracy per sorte...I know you are not into statistics but can you give a measure of how effective they were?

Lets give an example...falaise, were the axis armour squashed by sheer numbers or were they accurate to a plane?

BDS

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Hi

Typhoons? very accurate, I have heard the rocket salvo was damn near the equal of a battle wagon broadside.
What struck me most forcibly was that the "Tiffys" could take out anything...I have been in a position where the "Tiffys" have come in low over our heads and let go their rockets to strike in front of us, at the moment of firing the plane seemed to stand still in the air...And made one hell of a noise!

The complete destruction of the German armour in the Falaise pocket was, it is fair to say, a combination of all arms.

But the Tiffys played a major role, I have seen a tiffy strike lift a heavy tank onto its side. They took a terrible tole of the Panzers in that cauldron.

It was a sight of complete chaos and destruction. some of the sights weree horrific.

The Typhoons were admirably suited in their role of destroying the fleeing Panzers and associated troops. Bloody carnage! The Typhoons effectiveness? Top class, take out anything, I am not surprised that they could only strike a single unit at times .The Bosche knew that exposure meant certain death to their Panzers.
Brian

I hate to disgree but that is at odds with the British evaluation of German tanks losses carried out after the battle of Normandy. While the TAC may have been effective against softskins and rail targets they were not capable of taking out large numbers of German tanks. The study found that only one Tiger I could definetly be deemed as destroyed by air weapons while only 6% of Panthers lost in NOrmandy were to air attacks. 80% of the Panthers lost were due to abadonment or destruction by crews. The british also found that the Typhoon had a hit rate of only 4% with its rockets.

However the psycological impact was immense both to degrading the German morale and bolstering that of the Allied troops. Air attacks were also effective against prepared positions.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

RedBaron is right...and I say that even though I'm a great Typhoon fan !

Due to its design, the Typhoon needed to attack in a shallow, not steep, dive, and those early RP's were just not that accurate. Don't forget, though, that that battery of 20mm Hispano's was pretty useful, too.

As with that other classic ground-attack aircraft of WWII, the Suka, the 'psychological' point shouldn't be overlooked. The sound of the Typhoon's Sabre engine at full power was said to be terrifying ( something we can't hear today, alas...) and being 'under the guns'', both RPs and 20mm, must have been a stressful experience for exhausted soldiers fleeing Normandy....

The Typhoons played a major role in the battle, took very severe losses while doing so, and rightly will always be synonymous with 'Rocket Firing Typhoons At The Falaise Gap' ! [img]graemlins/vc.gif[/img]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Quote:

" The study found that only one Tiger I could definetly be deemed as destroyed by air weapons"
------------------------------------------------

And that was a Tiger II in the Bulge!
The count of the 'air destroyed' Tigers missed completely the SS 101 Tigers (4?) bombed and destroyed on 15/6/44 and the '503' Tigers (at least 4) desroyed by bombers on 18/7/44.

M Kenny,

I was talking about TAC not the bombers used in Goodwood. Tactical Air Support... Typhoons etc... Not dropping 1000lb bombs on Tigers I think even the British could work out that wasnt a Typhoon...

Jeez...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

BDS I am sorry mate I wrote a proper answer but it did not upload. Will try again later
Brian

If the tiffy's did not take out the Panzers? then what in heavens name destroyed them? I saw all the paraphernalia of war, armour of all sorts destroyed,some of trying to climb up the walls. Utter and complete detruction, if not the tiffy's, then who? The destructive power of a tiffy broadside was enormous.
Sapper

Such terrible destruction. So many young dead, strewn on the lanes and roads. cataclysmic destruction. It would be interesting to know just how many of the Das Reich SS Panzer escaped with their lives,

The instigators of the Orador sur glan atrocities, did those that died along the way have to meet up with their victims?
Sobering thought is'nt it.
Sapper

From Zetterling...

'The division (Das Reich) was not surrounded in Falaise; it counterattacked towrads the pocket to enable the surronded units to escape. On 4th September 1944 it was reported to be short of 7,000 men, but this report seems to have been made in haste, without a complete picture of the situation. Nine days later it had 12,357 officers and men. This did not include the tanks regiment. Thus it seems the division was far from destroyed after the battles in Normandy'

As for tanks, Dar Reich had only six operational of all types on the 28th August 1944...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

I have a FP letter of a soldier with 1./SS-Panzer-Regiment 2, written on 6 August 1944. Nothing about the fighting though. He mostly talks about the lack of money and what he can't do. But imagine what he went through ( [img]graemlins/bullet.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/bullet.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/panzer.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/panzer.gif[/img] at the time when he wrote this letter...

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Fritz Langanke speaks of Falaise in his memories. He was responsbile for knocking out 2 Polish Shermans in his Panther on eihter side of the hill they were trying climb out and through to open the correidor.....

This must have been Hill 262, the 'Maczuga'.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Red Baron.
That was a snide remark "Even the British could tell it was not a Typhoon"

Just remember this, we beat the crap out of the Krauts utterly in Normandy. At first you outnumbered us and had the Panzers close at hand.

The British took on your Das Reich and your Number One SS Adolph Hitler Panzer and beat the crap out of them as well. Matter of fact we beat the crap out of all of them....
An angry Sapper.

Brain so true ! more like squished like a bug.

The core of the Waffen SS was destroyed at Normandie utterly and it was never to regain itself in battle, not even in the Ardenne, or Hungary/Austria. It was over...........

Well if you read my post correctly you would see I was pointing out that a British field observer could tell the difference between damage by a 1000lb bomb and a rocket strike.

My Das Reich? Whatever. My grandfather fought in the BEF at Dunkirk, spent 2 years in hospital, and returned to service to be paralysed by a German bullet climbing Monte Cassino. You asked for the casualties of Das Reich... I gave them to you.

If you want to imply that I am some sort of Neo-Nazi then have the balls to do so. I study history, the facts. If you dont want to listen, fine. But dont insult someone who was trying to stick up for the British field observers.

Yours a very pissed of...

RED

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

For an analysis of the success of the typhoon in NW Europe se Ian Goodersons 'Air Power at the Battlefront'. He comments that the best use of air power was in the interdiction role.

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Fair enough Red Baron.
If I misinterpreted that posting? Sorry mate! For many years I have dedicated my time to keeping alive the memory of my fallen comrades. When I hear what I think is a slur on the British, I do readily get my hackles up.
I have no other axe to grind, just that the young will be aware of what was sacrificed by their forbears. In all that time, I have striven in a small way to battle against the “Hollywood” record of the war. For as time goes by, that media version becomes more accepted as historical fact. The legends and film versions replace actual history, sadly to such a degree that the British are hardly considered.
So! Don’t be “Pissed off” I honour your Father. “Bless Him”
Sapper.

Thanks Sapper,

I now a little of how you feel. I spend time teaching students about the Normandy invasion and the lack of knowledge scares me sometimes. But very occasionally you find a group of students who really do have an empathy with what happened. So dont give up hope yet!

I go to Normandy every year with a university trip and I hear the same thing every year. The students always find the most memorable part of the trip the visits to the cemetaries. Even after countless visits it still has an effect on them and myself. I have never known one person not to be effected in some way by those places. My young brother, who is 14, recently visited the WW1 cemetries and he found it very moving. Though perhaps the most emotional cemetry I visited was the British and Dominion Cemetary on Crete. It was so peaceful and in such a beautiful location. But there were so many 'Unknown', it was heart rending.

So dont despair, some of us try our hardest to keep memories alive, of all those who fell and gave their lives in the service of their country. Every year I go to Normandy I alsways visit one particular grave. That of Alan Whitehead, a British Paratrooper killed on my birthday. I always spend a few moments with him on every trip to Bayeaux.

I apologise for my response I was having a very stressful day so it was rather over the top, but I have spent my life trying to learn a little of what it was like. As a young boy I used to listen to my Granfathers stories of Dunkirk before he died. We also took him back to visit it in the early 80's and we spent sometime in Dunkirk and also at Dieppe. He dindnt say much for the entire time we were there. Just the odd comment on so and so 'copt a bullet here' and 'thats where so and so died'. I think he found it very difficult, he certainly never got over what happened in those days in 1940. I think he felt alot of guilt in having survived when so many of his close friends from his pre-war service died there. I always find it such a ahme that he died when I was so young and I never got the chance to really talk to him, he was not a well man and never recovered from the wounds he recieved at Monte Cassino, he spent the rest of his life in a wheelchair. If I could talk to him now, I would have a better chance of understanding him. I like to think it may have helped him deal with some of his demons.


Yours

Piers (RED)

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

I'll second that, Sapper.

There were something like 50,000 people at Arnhem last month, all paying homage to the veterans.

Many today are ignorant, that's true - but many do also try to understand and pay respect.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Martin ignorant or don't give a Rats behind. So true in the states where the youth of today take all freedoms for granted but it is our fathers age, their grandfathers who gave their blood for freedom. Brian's true story of herosim needs to be preserved for all times sake so none of what he went through will ever have to be repeated in our prestn age. Sadly my gut feelings is we will hae to again...........

by the way I received a very unsuspecting gift in todays mail. A very hearty thank you, friend

Erich ~