I have to say that the 'Patton Uncovered' site is great - for laughs !

How about this for a gem ?

'Overlord turned out to be quite a failure. Though it succeeded.....' Eh?!

Don't get me wrong, I'm a Patton admirer - but his exploits should be kept in perspective, which this website manifestly doesn't !

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Yeah Martin, Patton was a genius tactician but altogether a nut. I mean Overlord didn't work but did. [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img] Confusion. I guess his "insanity" helped him be the general he was.

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Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer without being able to do it- Sun Tzu

Martin, I completely agree with you. The site is too, too... !!! Too Patton! He seems like a demi-God there! The site keeps bashing Montgomery once and again! That's completely unwise since you can't compare the two men; they were the exact opposite way of generals... [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Yep, guys!

The site does give some "delicious" aspects but that´s why actually I wanted to put it for people to see as that´s what they actually seem to have been saying to each other...

Quite nasty, I´d say. And I don´t think Monty was NOT returning the favours, right? How about the January 1945 press conference ( or something like that ) on who won the battle of the bulge?

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"All I had to do was cross the river, capture Brussels, and then go on to take the port of Antwerp. The snow was waist-deep and there wasn't room to deploy four tanks abreast, let alone six Panzer divisions. It didn't get light till eight and was dark again at four and my tanks can't fight at night. And all this at Christmas time!"

Sepp Dietrich, Commander, 6th Panzer Army

http://www.avalanchepress.com/miva/m...ry_Code=panzer

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The Avranches bridge

On 31 July 1944, Avranches is taken and the German western front is on the verge of dismantling. The same day, with the arrival on the battlefield of General Patton’s 3rd Army, the American divisions push southward. A spearhead unit is assigned the mission to capture the Pontaubault bridge. A German kampfgruppe launch a counter-attack, but it is not strong enough facing to the powerful 3rd Army. On 31 July, in the evening, Patton receives a phone call announcing him the capture of Pontaubault bridge; at once he orders a staff meeting, and all the night the American armoured divisions cross the bridge and fan out in Brittany.

On 1st August 1944 Colonel

Pontaubault: The military police, pistol in hand, had to manage a huge traffic jam : a 50 km traffic-jam to be precise ! 1500 vehicles took the bridge and this procession lasted three days.

Bacherer’s "kampfgruppe" arrives in the outskirts of the city, but the taskforce is not strong enough facing General Patton’s 3rd Army. The Germans renew their assault to destroy the bridge of Pontaubault, without any success. This intact bridge enables General Patton’s Army to fan into Brittany. During several days, night and day, tanks, vehicles and troops cross the bridge. Toward the west and Mont-Saint-Michel General Patton launches the 79th Infantry division, the 6th Armoured division rush on toward Brest by the road 176, the Americans liberates Servon in the progression.




Pontaubault in the southern part


http://www.ville-avranches.fr/englis...ee06_1aout.htm

http://www.normandie44lamemoire.com/...ault%20us.html

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On battle for Norway 1940:

Casualties (April-June 1940)

Norwegian forces lost a total of 1,335 men killed in action (Army and Navy combined). Norwegian civilian casualties, in spite of many German bombings, were less than 300 killed.

German forces reported that 5,636 soldiers, sailors, and airmen never returned from the Norwegian campaign.

Allied forces (including Norwegian) lost a total of 6,100 men killed or missing and presumed dead. British losses in the land fighting amounted to 1,869 men. French and Polish ground forces lost 530 men killed.

And more on

http://www.feldgrau.com/norwegian.html

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Great animation showing the Allied advance from D-Day till the end of the Pocket:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/angels_eight/campaign.html

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

That is a really good link, KnightMove...

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

"western front" facts

About Mid June 1940

http://aerostories.free.fr/dossiers/AA/vichy/page8.html

Also, in other parts of the French Colonial Empire; Indochina, Syria, Madagascar, Equatorial Africa, Western Africa, the strength of the French Air Force was still intact.


In North Africa alone (Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia), nearly 640 airplanes were available
( after evacuation from France ). It consisted of H-75s, D-520s, MS-406s fighters, Glenn Martin, LeO-45, DB-7s, Amiot 351s bombers, and miscellaneous airplanes such as the Potez 63-11s, and MB-174s.

Certain facts must however be brought up. A large number of miscellaneous airplane types have never constituted an Air force. Furthermore, it is legitimate to ask how a totally disorganized Air Force could have effectively become operational in a few days.

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From Julian Jackson´s Fall of France (2003)

While the French awaited the British response regarding a possible approach towards Italy,
on 27th May 1940 Daladier, now foreign minister, drafted a telegram offering extensive territorial concessions to Italy : In French Somaliland, on the frontier with Libya, and even possibly in Tunisia. Reynaud insisted nothing should be done without consulting the British. The British answer was unambigiousffering territorial concessions to Mussolini would only whet his appetite, would be disastrous for allied public opinion, and must be avoided at all costs.

--------

Like one French commentator put it:

"You can´t attempt a Munich after a Sedan!"

Italy entered the war on 10th June.

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From Julian Jackson´s Fall of France (2003)

In the first stage from 10th May to 3rd June 1940 German losses : casualty rate 2,500 per day.

The second phase: 4th June to 18 June, when you´d expect the French troops to have been entirely demoralized, the casualty rate rose almost up to 5,000 per day for Germans!

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Explanation?

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

According to the book some military reasons are found:

Weygand´s combative style initially had a galvanizin geffect effect after the torpid and distant leadership of Gamelin.

Second, soldiers who had experienced German air attacks in early May had become partially inured to them. at least to the shrieking of the Stukas.

Third, the High Command had altered its tactics. Abandoning the orthodoxy of the continuous front, Weygand adopted the "chessboard" defence system made up of Hedgehogs, points of resistance centred on a natural obstacle like a wood or a village, and protected by all round by artillery. The gunners were now instructed to fire at tanks on sight, like a revolver, rather than, as French doctrine previously prescribed, being employed only for concentrated fire under centralized control. This gave greater flexibility to the defence.

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Speaking about that animation before, it seems the Allies were held up for a long time at Caen. Does anyone know where I could get information on that? (books, links, sites, videos)

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Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer without being able to do it- Sun Tzu

Very good, Kai! Nice information! However, I think we should add something very important which is that; the deeper the Germans went, the harder they French fought, as did the Russians and the Germans themselves later in the war.

Curious, isn't it? That doesn't match the traditional image of the French surrendering before they see any combat...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I knew about Weygand's changes in French defense strategy, but I did not know, neither expect them to have doubled German losses!

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If someone tries to remove the speck in your right eye, will you turn to him the other also?

The French did give up finally all resistance as Petain declared the war was over.But it is interesting to note that the French kept on fighting ever harder as the battle continued before that.

There were two places where they thought they might continue the campaign: Northen Africa or the Brittany.

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Seems like Hitler didn't learn the lesson about mobile defense. I would have been very useful in 1942 onwards...

This makes a very interesting what-if. What if general Gamelin would have remained as an Army clerk and Weygand or someone as agressive as Foch or someone as capable as Pétain would have been put in charge since the beginning... That open southern German flank was a big temptation...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I have interesting ideas on French what if´s. Do you think Friedrich you´d be interested on those? I would not like to make what-if´s that people cannot answer.

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Go ahead, Kai. I'll open a thread for French what-ifs in "What-if" forum.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

On Battle of the Bulge:

Saturday, January 27, 1945

On the Western Front... Troops from US 3rd Army cross the Our River and take Oberhausen. The gains made by the German Ardennes offensive are now almost completely eliminated.


http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1945/jan45/f27jan45.htm

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I wonder if this author also compared the proportionate number of losses of American lives in operations to British losses, Monty wasn't perfect but at least he exercised caution and restraint (Nienmagen (sp?) Bridge Aside [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] )where the Americans just flung themselves into any place there was action.

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Der große Stoß Büstenhalter auf Ihrem Kopf!!

This probably will stay as one of the mysteries of war and as well a matter of taste as well.

One can always argue that the losses would have been huge but one can also ask whether bigger losses at Falaise would have meant earlier ending of war and thus bigger saves of lives throughout the war.It´s not that simple in any way.Then again I find it not so easy to say that putting a whole much more reserves in action would have meant that much as the Germans that escaped did have to leave almost all artillery, tanks and vehicles behind. And without Hitler´s stupidity the whole Falaise pocket would not have been possible.

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Let's not forget, gentlemen that Falaise was a child's game compared to what was happening in the east at the time.

The Germans lost some 50.000 men at Falaise and even if entirely trapped, the number wouldn't have been superior to 80.000...

Operation 'Bagration' launched on June 22nd 1944 annihilated Army Group 'Centre', destroying 30 German divisions and severely damaging 20 more, totallising 450.000 men lost only in the pocket formed between Smoliensk and Minsk. Army Group 'North' was then isolated and trapped with its back to the Baltic, and Army Group 'South' was also separated from 'Centre', the eastern front's reserves were all deployed and by the end of August, the Soviet Army had advanced 800 kilometres, driven the Germans completely out of Russian soil.

The casualties for the second half of 1944 were superior to 900.000 Germans.

Falaise did not break the backbone of the Wehrmacht, 'Bagration' did.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun