Freddie,
Agree that Versailles was very much a victor's peace. Can also understand the anger at the destruction caused, but more was caused in WW2 and both France and Germany realised afterwards they needed each other economically to rebuild, rather than Germany being ostracised.
Think the shock of defeat after decades of matching Britain militarily was what created the mindset of Germany being "stabbed in the back".
It was too easy to believe that only a conspiracy could have caused the mighty German army to collapse, and scum like Hitler exploited that to the full.
Don't forget though, that Germany had the biggest socialist movement in the world prewar, and everyone expected a revolution to happen there and not Russia. Hence Lenin's nice one way rail ticket-let him cause havoc on someone else's doorstep. I quite believe the post war street battles between the communists and veterans groups were probably more evenly matched than realised; could have gone either way, I think.
Also agree that Wilson was an opportunist. By the late 30s, his reputation from Versailles had sunk so low that a Hollywood movie of his life sank without trace. Pity, because it wasn't that bad.
The Republicans who were against any idea of a king in Germany were probably Irish-American.In 1940, Joe Kennedy advised Washington that Hitler would be in London within weeks, with nothing to stop him. Not hard to see where the precedent came from.
Anyway, this is off topic. I'll finish by giving you that book title:
Derek H. Aldcroft. From Versailles to Wall Street 1919-29.(LA. UC Press. 1981) ISBN0520045068.
It's a great study of the inter war world economy, and it's peaks and troughs. A good read.

Regards,
Gordon

[ 26. January 2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]

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Regards,

Gordon
History Vault Bookshop
FortressScotland-http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/Historian/

Thank you very much for the response, Gordon! And thanks for the tittle. I'll try to look for it. Also, to get a very apropriate insight on the post WWI years, I think you all need to get Churchill's "The gathering storm" —the first volume of his "The Second World War" collection— it's really marvelous; realistic and philosophycal.

Again, no one questions the great bravery the Free Polish men showed a thousand times during WWII. My grandfather talks very good of the Poles he and his mates faced in northern Italy in late 1944. But to say that the Poles won the Battle of Britain is like saying that Mexico won the Pacific War. The fact that they sent some 10.000 men and an air squadron has nothing to do with the final outcome.

It's obvious, more than 1.500 British pilots against 150 Polish pilots. It is mathematically impossible.

I suposse you haven't heard of the British VIII Army defeating marshal Rommel in North Africa nor the 2/3 —5 million men— of the German armed forces annihilated in the eastern front, i. e. the Soviet Union.

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Polish Squadrons 302 and 303 fight in BoB.
And a lot of Polish pilots fight in British Squadrons.

All Polish Squadrons

Take a look on the links below:


300 "Masovian" Bomber Squadron

301 "Ziemia Pomorska" Bomber Sqadron

302 "City of Poznan" Fighter Squadron

303 "Kosciuszko" Fighter Sqadron

304 "Ziemia Slaska" Bomber Squadron

305 "Ziemia Wielkopolska" Bomber Squadron

306 "City of Torun" Fighter Squadron

307 "City of Lwow" Night Fighter Squadron

308 "City of Krakow" Fighter Squadron

309 "Ziemia Czerwienska" Fighter Squadron

315 "City of Deblin" Fighter Squadron

316 "City of Warsaw" Fighter Squadron

317 "City of Wilno" Fighter Squadron

318 "City of Gdansk" Fighter Squadron

663 Artillery Observation Squadron

Polish Fighting Team

Index of Polish pilots individual scores

777, no need to twist this but nice try. Back to the Battle of Britain. The poles played an active but minor role in the BoB.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Polish fighters shot down 15% of German aircrafts (in the BoB) and you call that a minor role!?!
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The Battle of Britain - during which Polish fighters shot down 15 per cent. of German aircraft destroyed - Tobruk, Cassino, the Falaise pocket, Arnhem, these are only few of the names associated with Polish arms. At sea, on land, and in the air the Poles proved themselves good fighters and good comrades. Those who love courage and endurance in the depths of adversity must wish these men well, wherever they may go."
London "Times" 21st March 1946.

We've told you over and over that we all think this.

But if you are stating by any way that the Polish contributed in a great shape to the Allied victory, then I'm sorry but then it isn't true.

Only three nations made major contributions to it, which are —in order of importance:

Canada, Australia, France, New Zealand, India, South Africa, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Norway, Denmark, etc. all them made great and brave efforts, but individually were NOT decisive, even if the New Zealanders were some of the British troops who made the Germans shiver...

[ 26. January 2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

We've told you over and over that we all think this.

But if you are stating by any way that the Polish contributed in a great shape to the Allied victory, then I'm sorry but then it isn't true.

Only three nations made major contributions to it, which are —in order of importance:

Canada, Australia, France, New Zealand, India, South Africa, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Norway, Denmark, etc. all them made great and brave efforts, but individually were NOT decisive, even if the New Zealanders were some of the British troops who made the Germans shiver... </font>[/quote]950 000 Polish soldiers fight 1939 against Nazi Germany (and Russia).

300 000 Poles are (1939-1945) in the resistance (Armia Krajowa,AK) Link: Armia Krajowa - Polish Home Army

600 000 Polish soldiers fight all over the World. (1945)

6 020 800 (320 000 soldiers) Poles was dead at the and of the war. (1945)

But´s ok... Poland play only a minor role in the WWII...

[ 26. January 2004, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Wojtix ]

And were absolutely overwhelmed by superior forces - numerically, tactically and technologically - in three weeks and the whole country ceased to exist as a sovereign nation. It didn't matter how brave the civilians and soldiers were. Since October 1939 until the uprisal of Warsaw, the Poles in Poland didn't take part in any significant military actions.

Who bravely uprised and caused the Germans some 20.000 casualties but were abandonned by Stalin and were brutally slaughtered by German regular troops.

Perfect sign of Polish bravery and nazi brutality.

YES, SHE DID!

Wojtix,

It would be nice if you read a little more and find out that the Soviet Union lost some 25 million of her citizens fighting 2/3 of the German armed forces. More than 5 million Germans died in the eastern front. Stalingrad, 'Little Saturn', Leningrad, Kursk, the Dniéper campaign, 'Bagration', the Vistula offensive... just to mention the most important operations and victories of the Red Army.

The battle of the Atlantic, the battle of Britain, El Alamein just to mention three of the most important battles of the war, some of the most decisive which the Germans lost, all won by Great Britain. And even if there were Polish pilots and a Polish brigade in the desert, their very important contribution doesn't make it decisive.

And now what about the campaigns in Tunisia, Italy, France, the Low Countries, Western Germany and the Air War over Germany? American and British troops MOSTLY. American and British equipment. Just a few Poles who used it very skillfully and bravely. But excuse me, their number was so bloody small to have had any major impact.

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

A further nail to be hit on the head in this thread, the invasion of Poland did not finally convince, or outrage, Britain and France in respect of the intentions of Hitler. This was achieved when he broke the agreement to limit sequestration in Czechoslovakia to the Sudeten. There was no ‘or else’ clause to this agreement and the declaration that an invasion of Poland would lead to war was a formal and politically acceptable, (in International eyes), ‘drawing of a line in the sand’. There was no ‘special relationship’ with Poland nor was there any way, practically or feasibly, or intention of Britain or France to instantly launch into an attack on Germany.

Between the wars, if Poland had concentrated on building bridges with their neighbours and harmonising its citizens instead of repeatedly thumbing their nose at its former masters while flexing the muscles of Britain and France by proxy, they may have been treated less severely.

There’s some very telling extracts from the book: Poland’s Holocaust: Ethnic Strife, Collaboration with Occupying Forces and Genocide in Second Republic, 1918-1947. by Tadeusz Piotrowski.

There’s a short review on the University of California, Santa Barbara site at:
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/projects...ws/jessica.htm

The reviewer is disappointed with the book as it appears she would like it to deal more with Jewish persecution. However, the main theme of the book is the despicable acts among the population to other members of different ethic origin.

Some quotes;
”During the interwar years, over 30% of all Polish citizens belonged to ethnic minorities, and in many areas, national minorities actually constituted local majorities. Ukrainians, Jews, Belo-Russians, and Germans, in particular, were represented in large numbers within Poland’s borders. All of these minority groups, in some manner or another, were agitating for independence and ethnic reunification before the onset of W.W.II.
It was as a result of these different national goals that each minority group ended up contributing to the Polish terror – each group chose sides in the war, hoping to capitalise on Soviet and German power in an attempt to achieve divisive objectives.
Over 6 million Polish citizens died during W.W.II, over 90% came through non-military loses; a whopping 21.4% of the total population was lost between 1939 and 1945. No doubt, the rate of death was expanded exponentially because of rampant Polish disloyalty and ethnic collusion with the enemy. Much of the inter-Polish terror that occurred at the hands of ethnic minorities was particularly devastating, and Piotrowski does not hesitate to term many atrocities as instances of ethnic cleansing.”

In the early article you posted at length, the writer claims Churchill and other seniors Britons ”did not like Poles”. If this is the case, it wouldn’t appear they were altogether bad judges would it?

No.9

p.s. re other false claims made, Britain’s oldest ally is Portugal and the first men the British fought shoulder to shoulder with in 1939 were the French and Belgium’s, closely followed by the Dutch and Norwegians – which we would happily do again as a number of our units are now interlocked in automatic support roles.

'I felt so happy among these comrades, I can honestly say that I never had such relationships again in my life...It is impossible to describe how charming they were, how kind...My most cherished memories date from 1940 to 1941, when I was in an English squadron'.

Ludwik Martel, 54 & 603 Squadrons, from Zamoyski, The Forgotten Few , London 1995.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Wojtix, before you start putting words in our mouth, I think I speak for all of us when I say

a) we LOVE the Poles
b) we collectively agree that Britiain would have been in deep doo dahs if it had to do it alone
c) the Poles ALONG WITH THE REST OF THE COMMONWEALTH VOLUNTEERS made a significant and probably war winning contribution to the critical skirmishes during the battle of britain.

Please don't be selfish and try to claim the whole thing to yourself, like TOM CRUISE is about to in the new battle of Britain film he is bringing out in a year or so to do with the American squadron of spitfires.

And Herr Generale, I know you were trying to make a point but baiting the guy with mentions of other armed services not pertinant to this discussion will only fuel a already biased opinion. [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

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Der große Stoß Büstenhalter auf Ihrem Kopf!!

Err...really?


Cheers,

__________________
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Wojtix,

where´s the 15% figure from, BTW. Interested as I think we should all present our sources when we present figures that are considered important.

I mean just a while ago on British BoB document I heard a figure on 8% for Poles ( and I think it´s a great figure even if 8% ).I definitely can give the name of the document if needed. Maybe yours is more precise but I´d like to know the source!

[ 27. January 2004, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

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And were absolutely overwhelmed by superior forces - numerically, tactically and technologically - in three weeks and the whole country ceased to exist as a sovereign nation.
</font>[/quote]Like France (5 000 000 soldiers!), Great Britain, Belgium and the Netherlands (many Polish soldiers too) together in four weeks. (1940)

The Poles fight against German AND Russia. In that time our allys (France and Great Britain) do NOTHING to help Poland.

I don´t know precisely the sources that "Times" used for that article. Ask the English journalists [img]smile.gif[/img]

The Battle of Britain - during which Polish fighters shot down 15 per cent. of German aircraft destroyed...
London "Times" 21st March 1946.

I don´t try to claim the whole thing to myself. But only a small group of people in Great Britain knows (today), how many Poles fight and die to defend their country in the WWII.

[ 27. January 2004, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: Wojtix ]

So you acknowledge then that it was Poles along with the Czechs, the Commonwealth and other overseas volunteers that saved Britain and not just the Poles?

Martin/Kai, you got any figures for the combined overseas effort vs Polish only?

[ 27. January 2004, 06:21 AM: Message edited by: BratwurstDimSum ]

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Der große Stoß Büstenhalter auf Ihrem Kopf!!

Just to show I am not an ignorant git, I purchased last year the the excellent book:

"Poles in Defence of Britain" by Robert Gretzyngier ISBN: 1902304543

A fantastic book combining Oral history from some of the Polish vets themselves with testimony from their British Comrades. Also included are combat records for EVERY day and the fates of ALL Polish pilots who flew in the Battle of Britain.

A stunning read and a wake up call to all those who still do not know this small but significant contribution to British History.

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Der große Stoß Büstenhalter auf Ihrem Kopf!!

I never said that only the Poles saved Britain.