An ignorant lot aren't we:

Australia began the war without a Regular Army (Maybe 2,000 men in Coastal garrisons) an Air Force with about 200 Aircraft (Haweker Demons, Avro Ansons) and a reasonable Navy of 2 Hvy Cruisers (Australia & Canberra), 3 Lt Cruisers (Sydney, Perth, Hobart)and 4 V & W class DD's and HMAS Stuart (DD) from WW1.

From these beginings Australia raised 4 Infantry & 1 Armoured Division for Overseas Service (The Armd Div didnt leave OZ) plus 8 Militia Infantry, 2 Armd & 2 Motor Divs. (3 of these saw action)

The RAAF formed about 50 fighting squadrons, 16 Sqadrons of the RAF were "Australian" and tens of thousands of Aussies served in RAF squadrons (as mentioned by others,Hughie Edwards V.C & Micky Martin being among the most famous)

The RAN saw its major expansion in the smaller (Corvette and smaller) ships but those in Service saw action on every Ocean.

The Army sent troops to the Middle East in early 1940, 6 Aus Div captured Bardia, Tobruk & Benghazi, went to Greece and some troops fought on Crete & in Syria. 7 Aus Div sent 18 Bde to Tobruk, and was involved in the Syria operation and was the main force of th Western Desert Force after Rommels first attack. 9 Aus Div (Rats of Tobruk) the worst trained of the 3 Divs, held Rommel out of Tobruk for many months, went for a rest then returned to help defend the Alamein box then was the core of Monty's offensive.
A Bde went to England (and another formed there) in 1940 and were part of the counter attack force in case of invasion.

The 8th Aus Div went to Malaya (2 Bdes only) where it helped unsuccesfully to defend against the Japanese attack.23 Bde garrisoned Rabaul, Timor & Ambon and were overrun by the Japanese, and suffered heavily while POW.

The 6th & 7th Div were brought back from the Mid East, the 6th Div garrisoned Ceylon for a short while. After a short home leave, the Divs went into New Guinea where they helped Militia units halt then counterattack the Japanese. At Milne Bay, the Aust 18 AIF Bde & 7th Militia Bdes were the first Allied units to stop a major Japanese attack.
From Gona/Buna, the Australians in partnership with the US Army slowly pushed the Japanese back through Lae & Finschafen and at wars end were on Borneo at Labuan, Balikpapan & Tarakan and had small forces blockading Japanese at Rabaul & Bouganville.

The RAAF had a new squadron (10 RAAF) forming in England with Sunderlands in 1939, sent 3 Sqn(fighter)RAAF to the Western Desert. 4 Squadrons were based in Malaya at the outbreak of war in 1941(and bombed the Japanese BEFORE the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

In the Pacific war, the RAAF formed about 50 Squadron, armed with Wirraway(Harvard/Texan) & Hudsons and continued to grow and at wars end were flying Spitfire VIII, Kittyhawks, Beaufighter, Mosquito, Liberator, Boomerang, Catalina, Mitchells and were about to place in service OZ made Mustangs.

The RAN suffered heavy losses in the early stages of the Pacific war, Sydney was sunk in 11/41 by a German raider, Canberra at Savo Island, Perth in the Sunda Strait, and Hobart was so badly damaged as to be under repair for 18 months. Australia was hit by 5 kamikaze's in 4 days before she withdrew from action.

In all, Australia suffered over 27,000 killed (including 8,000 while POW) 40,000 wounded and 22,264 POW.

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Whe're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ - 6 Australian Infantry Div, Bardia January 1941

Thanx Ali!

Got any more on this?

4 Squadrons were based in Malaya at the outbreak of war in 1941(and bombed the Japanese BEFORE the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.



Sounds like another lesser known fact of WW2...

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Quite right to mention the Kiwi’s Red. While its also right to mention Australia, who committed more men than New Zealand, proportionately however, the Kiwis lost more.

Average Total Populations 1939 to 1945
Aus 7’175’843
NZ 1’647’129

Average Possible Combat Males (typically 22% of Total Pops)
Aus 1’578’685
NZ 362’368

Peak Force Size (both are 43% of Possible Com Males!)
Aus 680’000
NZ 157’000

KIA (inc. missing)
Aus 23’365
NZ 10’033

KIA as a % of Poss Com Males
Aus 1.48
NZ 2.77

KIA as a % of Peak Force
Aus 3.44
NZ 6.39

No.9

No9

The Enzeds suffered heavier losses due to their higher percentage of troops in Combat roles. OZ, Canada etc also had a large number of troops who spent the war in far flung garrisons waiting for the attack whi never arrived.

The New Zealand Division also got into some nasty scrapes, Greece & Crete, a Bde overrun during Op.Crusader (to this point over 10,000 casualties), nearly captured by the 90 Lt at Minqar Qaim & a complete Bde wiped out at the Alamein position. Here they reorganised the Div as a Mixed Div with 2 Inf Bdes and 1 Arm Bde. In Italy they were involved at Monte Cassino and other major battles.

It men in the RAF, like the rest of the Commonwealth, suffered heavy losses, especially those in Bomber Command.

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Whe're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ - 6 Australian Infantry Div, Bardia January 1941

Kai,
The landinds at Kota Bharu were 75 minutes before the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

Australian air units in Malaya were
1 Sqn RAAF Lockheed Hudson
2 Sqn RAAF Lockheed Hudson(Could be wrong, the books filed away??)
21 Sqn RAAF Brewster Buffalo (newly converted from CAC Wirraway)
453 Sqn (Australian) RAF Brewster Buffalo (Australian aircrews in the RAF via the EATS)

In addition there was a R New Zealand AF Buffalo sqn, a RAF Sqn of Vildebeest Torp Bmrs

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Whe're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ - 6 Australian Infantry Div, Bardia January 1941

”The Enzeds suffered heavier losses due to their higher percentage of troops in Combat roles.”

A fair comment as the statistics show NZ committed the same percentage of men from their eligible combatant pool.

Regarding Canada, if you apply the same formulas you get the following:

Average Total Population 1939 to 1945
Can 11’756’314

Average Possible Combat Males (typically 22% of Total Pop)
Can 2’586’389

Peak Force Size (30% of Possible Com Males)
Can 780’000

KIA (inc. missing)
Can 37’476

KIA as a % of Poss Com Males
Can 1.45

KIA as a % of Peak Force
Can 4.80

I am well aware Aborigines served in Australian forces, but were there any specific Aborigine units, such as the NZ Maoris?

No.9

No, their were no Aboriginal units in either WW1 or 2.

Many fought with both AIF and Militia units and the RAAF.

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Whe're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ - 6 Australian Infantry Div, Bardia January 1941

Thank you Ali.

No.9

Martin, as you have mentioned elsewhere it is a shame their have been no books written about Micky Martin. He must have been a damm good pilot.

I have just finished reading Alamein: the Australian story. An excllent account of what happened to the 9th Division. The Australian were once again used as shock troops.

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Diver Derrick VC
_ _________________________ _
"In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason." - Ernest Hemingway

Not just 'damn good' - he was widely considered, then and now, to be possibly the most skillful RAF bomber pilot of WWII. I'm proud to own a copy of Robert Taylor's 'Dambusters' print signed by the late, great man himself.

And BTW, a very warm welcome to these forums, Diver Derrick VC ! [img]smile.gif[/img]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

www.diggerhistory.info is a good site

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“Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men.”
GENERAL GEORGE S. PATTON, JR.

>did Australia do much in WWII? I know they were at the Normany beaches on D-Day but what about other theatres or battles?

See "Oz at War" link: Peter Dunn

On my "favorites" is his section on 460 Squadron RAAF:
"The most sorties, the highest tonnage,
the heaviest casualties, the most decorations
of any Squadron in Bomber Command"
460 Squadron RAAF

2218 Bombers with RAAF crewmen lost in Bomber Command alone
Lost Bombers - World War II Lost Bombers
- to that add the mediterranean and Asian theatres of war...

Not mentioned yet are the Australian coastwatchers, who played a critical role in the Guadalcanal Campaign, the great turning point in the Pacific war.

These men stayed behind, with their radios, on several Japanese occupied islands in the Solomons chain. The most famous coastwatcher was Martin Clemens on Guadalcanal itself, although he was neither a coastwatcher originally nor an Australian (he was a British colonial ofificer turned coastwatcher). The memoir Clemens wrote is well worth reading.

Less well-known are the Australian coastwatchers in the western Solomons such as Bougainville and another whose name escapes me at the moment - perhaps Vella Lavella or Shortland. The vital role they and their radios played might well have made Guadalcanal the Allied victory that it was, rather than a defeat.

The Japanese launched many air raids against the Americans at Henderson Field on Guadalcanal. These air armadas, consisting mostly of medium bombers and Zero escort fighters, flew south from Rabaul. The coastwatchers radioed notification of both air and sea movements to Henderson. Such timely notices allowed the Marine and Navy pilots of the Cactus Air Force, flying slow-climbing Grumman F4Fs, to achieve combat altitudes of 20,000 to 25,000 feet before the enemy air fleet arrived. Without the advance information, the almost daily air battles would certainly have had a different outcome.

JT

Could anyone do me a big favour?
- find the name of a Wing Commanders in 617 towards the end of the war,
who retired near Lismore / Bexhill, in NE NSW Australia.
I visited him in 1992 (on specific request of and on behalf of Joe Merchant of the 1944 - 45 dambusters crew.) I am sure he has passed away by now, but will be driving past his banana / macadamia nut farm Feb 2008 and would love to stop by to salute his memory, perhaps say hi to remaining family.

I spent a heartrending day with him in '92.

He said he was 23 years old when he was promoted to Wing Commander, and the "only reason" (he said) was that he was the oldest living pilot in 617. (-;
He said he still received a steady stream of letters and phone calls from old crew members, and would politely reminise but in fact could not remember a single name or face. In the war, all crewmen were referred to by the last three digits of their enlistment number only - never, ever by name. He said this was an absolute pre-requesite for emotional survival - the losses were that high with their (and 9 Sqdn's) precision bombing. Oh... that hurts still.

Old age creeping up. Can not for the life of me remember his name. Help would be really and truly appreciated.

Film tribute to 617: YouTube - memories of 617 squadron with tom mclean=

Fred Wilson, signing off:
Named after Fred Sutherland of the Dambusters

Was it Phil Martin, by any chance...?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

>Was it Phil Martin, by any chance...?

Could be Martin, but memory is failing me. Can't recall, won't likely till I'm in Lismore NSW.

Phil Martin is not on my list of post 1943 617 Wing Commanders.
Mine includes: "Willie" Tait, Cheshire, Fauquier, none of whom resided in Australia as far as I know, plus McLean.

I've just waded through my copy of Ward/Lee/Wachtel's 'Dambusters' tome and confusingly, have come up with the following...

I can't find a 'W/C McLean'....( there was a F/Sgt D A MacLean in McCarthy's crew on the Raid ...? )

W/C Cheshire is the famous Leonard Cheshire.

Also can't find a 'W/C Gordon Price'...although there is a Flt. Lt. Price shown operating with 617 from January/April 1945.

However, two Wing Commanders who did serve with 617 at the end of the War were 'Jock' Calder ( promoted from S/L while with 617 ) and W/C John Grindon, who joined 617 from 630 Squadron on April 28th, 1945 to replace G/C 'Johnny' Fauquier.....

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

The "617 The Operations Record Book 1943 - 1945" by Tobin Jones at
Dambusters has 755 pages of info!
Every ops detail, supposedly a complete list of all 617 Sqdn members, pages of articles and letters once stamped "Most Secret" and so forth and so on, ending with a series of letters from the King, Eisenhower etc.

PS:
Just got an email:
==> Tobin Jones is the webmaster for Dambusters.org !!! <==
"Dambusters.org site is (finally) seeing some improvements."
<== (-: (A Smiley that has Tied One On! )

Oct 15th 2007 Update:
Email from Tobin Jones, webmaster for Dambusters

Message reads:
"I took over the site a couple of years or so ago but have a lot of (ed: other time consuming) work still to do. <SNIP> Thanks for your good wishes, nice to know it is appreciated. The site is due for another upgrade soon as I have received quite a lot of additional information from various sources so do keep an eye on developments."

Question to "No 9" or whoever might know...
Is it possible to find and post the statistics for the percentage of men committed from the Russian eligible combatant pool?

Considering their horrific losses... it might help paint yet another portrait of their committment and contribution to the war effort.

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Stepson of Arthur Ellison Sovereign:
RCAF Navigator: Lancasters and Wellingtons,
Bomber Command, WW2

Named after Fred Sutherland of the Dambusters.

the 'diggers' did a lot in ww1 remember Paschendaele and Gallipoli. My avatar is from a thumbstone of an aussie who lays in buttes cemetery and he was a casualty of paschendaele 1917.

but about the ww2-part there is just lit known.

This site is a nice tribute to the war efforts of the Aussies : Peter Dunn

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Sixty-four bomber pilots and crew lie in the cemetery at Wevelgem Communal and today many locals still pay their respects to those brave men from high in the skies.

Australian soldiers did lots of things during WWII. As previously mentioned, they took part in the famous Dambusters Raid (AKA Operation Chastise), they were present in the Pacific Theater, European Theater and on the high seas.

Apart from that - Japanese midget submarines attacked Sydney Harbour, Darwin was the subject of at least two air-raids and the Australian government commandeered schools for use as training-camps and headquarters for the army.

My own old high school (Scotch College, founded 1851) had to share it's campus with students from...I think it was Melbourne Grammar School, because their campus was being used by the military. Students spent the days studying in shifts. Some studied, others spent the days digging out trenches and bomb-shelters.

In fact at Scotch, even to this day, over 60 years after the war ended, some students still believe that there's an old WWII bomb-shelter somewhere on the school grounds (the school historian has since debunked this myth, but some still believe).

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