Say Hitler never declared war on the U.S. when it did? How long would it take [and what] to provoke the U.S.into war?The Jew executions? Maybe U-boats sinking a couple US ships? Any thoughts? [img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img]

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Hi Framer,
Hard to say. A U-Boat sunk the USS Kearney in US territorial waters in 1941, and all it provoked was an official protest. A lot of merchant ships were sunk the same way.
What did cause a storm was the presence of a team of German saboteurs who landed on the East coast from a U-Boat in 1942. These guys behaved more like tourists, visiting relatives in New York, before the two "leaders" decided to give themselves up. They were jailed, the rest were sentenced to death by a military tribunal (Roosevelt insisted on that), but didn't go to the chair till after the war.
Failing either of these events occurring, I'm at a loss to suggest what would have persuaded America to join the war.

Regards,
Gordon

[ 04. March 2004, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]

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Regards,

Gordon
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Hitler´s declaration of war in Dec 1941 was a jackpot to Churchill.

Personally I think the US would have entered the war one day but without good reasons this might have taken an eternity, actually. But I make a wild guess that by 1944 at the latest.

It would have been a big task to declare war for Roosevelt, and I don´t think he could have done that without a very good reason.

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I'm thinking Maybe,had Hitler really invaded England.No matter how ill-prepared we were for war,we could not just set back and let that happen.

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Yep Framert,

I do agree that England was important for the US. But anyway, the fact remains that in the summer 1940 as the situation was getting really bad for the western allied forces, France was asking the US to enter the war and the US said "No".

I know there are political restrictions to do so ( to enter the war ), but considering the seriousness of the situation I would think the US would have had to start getting ready for war after June 1940 if they consider taking part in saving England in the near future ( back then ) at all.

What actions did the US take in the summer 1940 in order to help England altogether? Can anyone put them here?

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Here´s PAUL REYNAUD, june 1940, to Roosevelt:


"I know that the declaration of war does not depend on you alone.

But I must tell you at this hour, so grave in our history as in yours, that if you cannot give to France in the hours to come the certainty that the United States will come into the war within a very short time, the fate of the world will change. Then you will see France go under like a drowning man and disappear after having cast a last look towards the land of liberty from which she awaited salvation."


http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel...r2/reynaud.htm

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel...2/reynaud2.htm


http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwt...t_war_02.shtml

http://www.info.dfat.gov.au/info/his...256B7D008202C8

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I was thinking"if"Germany made a REAL attempt against England in '41/'42.France,Belgium etc.had already surrendered and Britian was on her own.Besides Russia.In 1940,the U.S.Navy was OK.Had nothing to compete with German or Japan's planes.Had no decent armor,either. The U.S. was in a depression.Hard times for everyone,even the military.In'41 with alot of the US Navy sunk there could not be much help coming.

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What does it all mean? Germany simply couldn't do a real attempt of invasion against Great Britain. Her only choice was to starve Great Britain by submarine warfare.

And another thing, the depression was almost completely over by 1940.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Sorry General,now that I've re-read it I see what you mean. Let me try this again.Let's say Hitler tried again['41] to bomb and/or starve Britain into giving up.Hitler had no reason to occupy it.The U.S. would step in to help.You have any thoughts on when/why the U.S. would step in?

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I would submit that this would largely depend on direct German actions against the US and US property. This boils down largely to the U-boat campaign. Had the Germans continued to torpedo US shipping and attack US Naval vessels (accident or not) eventually it would have led to war just as it did in WW I.
In the interm, the US would have continued to supply masses of war material to those fighting Germany (and ammassing profits from that). Japan would have also faced the full force of the US military, likely ending that war as much as a year earlier. If that were the situation and the US became involved in Europe some time in 1944 the Germans would have been faced with a nearly, if not totally, prepared US military machine armed soon thereafter with nuclear weapons. In the end the suffering of Europe might have gone on a bit longer but Germany would still have lost.

T.A.

Just a thought. If the US entered the war in Europe in 1944, then the bombing part by the USAAF would come into the picture some 1-2 years later in full force than it originally did. And I do think it was as important to make the daily bombings as well as the RAF´s night bombing runs.

Would this allow the German scientists time to prepare new methods or defence as well as the factories under Speer´s orders would have better chances of mass production?

And without the US forces it would not be possible to make the invasion, so to end the war quckly it might take the A-bomb to be dropped in Berlin in 1945, but would Hitler still surrender? Or would he take the poison gas out of its closet as the war had continued to extremes in the west? War turning truly ugly before Germany forced to surrender with another A-bomb or more?

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[quote]Originally posted by Kai-Petri:
[QB] T.A.

Just a thought.

And without the US forces it would not be possible to make the invasion, so to end the war quckly it might take the A-bomb to be dropped in Berlin in 1945, but would Hitler still surrender? Or would he take the poison gas out of its closet as the war had continued to extremes in the west? War turning truly ugly before Germany forced to surrender with another A-bomb or more?Quote. Not sure I understand,without the USA who's dropping THE bomb on Berlin? In '45 Hitler could have cared less about his people.Remember he wanted to blow up every dam,dike etc and flood Berlin."All the good ones have already fallen"or something like that.If US forces did'nt enter until '44 that meant 2 less years of bombing[day time].Brings alot of what-if's into play.Maybe synthetic oil??How are things on Eastern front?By '44 Germany needs oil bad.All those secret weapons need oil.

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One last thought If Hitler attempted to bomb/starve England into submission the U.S. would have no place to start an invasion. Italy?? So they would have to come in then ?

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With Lend Lease, there would be no need for USA to enter the war in Europe.

USA could defeat Japan at will and the USSR would finally overrun Germany, as it did.

British involvement in the war against Axis in Burma and the middle east would continue as would the bombing campaign. British naval command of the Med and the Atlantic would eventually become a reality and it would be 1918 all over again. Germany would starve from lack of food and manpower and eventually the USSR would include all of Europe to the Pyrennees. Franco would be a hero.

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