I had never had the pleasure of watching "A Bridge Too Far" before I picked it up for a song at the local supermarket.

Anyway, my question was that in the movie, a member of the British intelligence had found signs of panzer units in the Arnhem(?) area. From what documentaries I've seen, however, it was supposedly a complete suprise to find the 9th and 10th SS Panzer in the area. I've had problems finding very much detailed information on the operation.

So was the intelligence in the movie only Hollywood fiction or was there some truth to it?

[ 31. May 2004, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Aufklarung ]

__________________
I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank.

It was the truth. Read Arnhem 1944 by Martin Middlebrook, Arnhem by A. D. Harvey and Tragedy Of Errors by Peter Heclerode. The Officer in question was Brian Urquhart, who had access to intelligence from Dutch sources and photo recon. The existance of the units was known to the British but they felt that the units would be unworthy due to the losses suffered in the Normandy campaign. The two divisions had taken heavy losses but had managed to keep many items of heavy equipment and were also both trained for anti-airborne operations. The intelligence was disregarded for many reasons, the desire to use First Allied Airborne army in battle, the fact that the info arrived too late to allow any changes and the mistaken belief that the German forces would offer little resistence. The film is wrong in portraying it as such a surprise, although to the rank and file and their immediate officers the presence of so much armour was a very nasty surprise! John Frost commented that had he known what he would have faced then changes would have been made to the equipment in order to counter the threat from Panzers. Try any good book on Arnhem, those listed are the best or you can have a copy of my Masters that deals with Airborne Effectiveness in WW2.

RED

__________________
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Thanks for the info Red [img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img]

__________________
I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank.

RedBaron is absolutely right.

But there is one odd footnote : despite the most exhaustive efforts, no post-war researcher has been able to find any trace of the photos seen by Brian Urquhart, and no written record has been found of the photo-recon flight.

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Very true. I have tried myself at the airborne forces museum in aldershot and drew a big fet blank... seems they may have 'dissapeared' to avoid an embarresment...

__________________
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

'After The Battle' tried very hard for their 'Market Garden - Then & Now' books. No relevant flight could be found in any of the PR Quadron ORBs, either.....

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Just to add a comment about the PR photos..it was also 'revealed' post war that due to the code breakers at Bletchley Park that it was known that elements of the 9th and 10th SS Divisons were refitting in the Arnhem area....however it is now well known that many commanders took a risk going to Arnhem because the High Command and Browning wanted to do something with the 1st Allied Airborne Army before the war finished...which given the rapid advance in August 1944 looked like it might have been Christmas...

From a conversation with Sir Brian Urquhart :

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/UN/...urquhart1.html


"Our general, who was a very dashing figure called Boy Browning, said to Prince Bernard of the Netherlands that the Allied forces were going to advance into Germany over a carpet of airborne troops. And I said to our chief of staff, "I wonder if they're going to be alive or dead airborne troops." This didn't go well at all, and everybody decided that they'd had enough, and I got sent away. I asked if I could stay just as an ordinary officer in the operation. They said, "No, you'll be court-martialed if you disobey orders."

__________________

Although most likely apocryphal, I thought the remark atributed to Browning in the film ( to the effect that 'the party is on ' ) summed it up rather well. Most participants seem to agree in retrospect that they were keen to 'have a go'...

( BTW, good to see you back at the forums, Niall.... [img]smile.gif[/img] )

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Perhaps a little off topic, but I wonder if it is known where the different 9th SS and 10th SS units were stationed (locations) in the weeks before Market Garden?

__________________
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

(banner by Otto)
www.basher82.nl

Yup, the book 'It never snows in September' gives the details, will have a look at it tomorrow! Recovering from having the mother to stay at the mo...

__________________
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Thanks RB, didn't think of that book. I haven't got it myself (yet).

I am looking for information about an incident that took place on 9 september. I doubt if that incident will be in the book, but it involved SS troops in that general area (north of Arnhem) and the murder of an Australian Mustang pilot.

__________________
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

(banner by Otto)
www.basher82.nl

According to Kershaw, 10th SS 'Frundsberg' formed a rear-guard bridgehead west of Maastricht on 5/6 September, moving to a new assembly area to the east of Arnhem on September 7th.

9th SS 'Hohenstaufen' had been collecting in the area of Sittard ( north of Maastricht ). Again on September 7th, a Kampfgruppe was detached and sent to Valkenswaard, the rest of the division driving through Venlo and Nijmegen before reaching assembly areas to the north and east of Arnhem. By this time, both divisions had been reduced to 20 or 30% of their original full strength.

No mention in the book of the incident which you mention.....

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

and i was just about to look...

well saves me the effort!

__________________
"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Thanks gents!

I doubt the incident would be mentioned anywhere in official docs.

Two 19 Sqn Mustangs went down on the 9th, killing Fl Sgt Abbott near Zuthpen. I have a source stating a mustang crashing on the 9th near Zutphen (Abbott) and one crashing near Velp (NE of Arnhem) on the 10th, though this should be the 9th. This should be the Aussies mustang. He bailed out, was taken prisoner by dutch collaborators and handed over to SS troops, who allegedly killed him. Today he is buried at Groesbeek Canadian Cemetery near Nijmegen.

__________________
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

(banner by Otto)
www.basher82.nl