Chatting with Sommecourt and Von Poop about Cambrai last night.
I've been there a few years ago to visit the locations of 1917 and 1918.
Sommecourt said there was fighting there in September 1944 between 9th SS Panzer Div and some Allied Armoured units.
Paul (Sommecourt) said it was a US Armored unit.
I've done some Googling and can only find breif reference to rearguard actions.
Has anymore more info and where the actions were are what Allied formations were in that area, early September 1944?
Thanks.
This says it was a British unit. Which I don't agree with as the British Armoured Divisions were further north.
Amazon.com: SS-Flak (Salmonpoetry): Books: Helmut Semmler

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according to the 9th SS Flak Abteilung they destroyed some 45 plus Shermans............ (maybe) I have covered this on the forums in the past and it probably has been in the archives

This much is fact, The German forces began to retreat by August 22, on which day the 2nd SS Armoured Corps was ordered to withdraw northwards to safety across the Seine, with Hohenstaufen engaging in bitter hand to hand combat while covering the rear. This fighting was reported to have been particularly fierce near Amiens which is south of Cambrai. No specifics on the forces that the Hohenstaufen was fending off. Will keep looking.

Just a note, looking at maps, it looks like the Amiens and Cambrai were along the path of the British Army. Will try to find a map with unit displays.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

off hand without the data in front of me I think it was US armored

Indessen sichert weiter südostwarts die Kampfgruppe Hohenstauffen. Im Zuge der sich anbahnenden Uberflügelung durch amerikanische Panzerverbände wird die Kampfgruppe über den Oise - Serre - Abschnitt 31.8 in der Nacht 1./2. September über St. Quentin auf Cambrai zurückgenommen.

Bis 15.00 Uhr werden 40 Feindpanzer vernichtet oder außer Gefecht gesetzt, aber dann beginnt sich die materielle Uberlegenheit der Briten auszuwirken, dem aus Richtung Arras vordringenden Panzerkeil gelingt es.............

special note of the actions by 4th./Flak 9 with 3.7cm's. my eyes are so crappy that it appears on a very small map it appears that there are some 16 8.8cm Flak in positions directly west of Cambrai. Panzergrenadiers had Panzerschreck 54's in their arsenal so a definate threat in the destruction of Allied armor.

Martin has the English translation from Tieke's book so maybe he can quote.

Looking at the map below, the closest unit would have been the 2nd US Armored which was part of the XIX Corps. It is the last unit on the Left flank of the US forces. Then it is the Canadians and British. Cambrai is just NNE of Rouen.

http://www.mtmestas.com/Military/cam...p18-19-map.jpg

But I still cannot find documented accounts of any American units fighting in Cambrai but found this.

Google Image Result for http://www.mtmestas.com/Military/campaigns/images/france-nothern/images/p05-map.jpg

Elbeuf is where the 2nd US Armored is located on the map above. So right now only a guess would point to this unit.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

But on this map it shows US units to be way out of the way of where Cambrai is located????

http://www.mtmestas.com/Military/cam...p26-27-map.jpg

Could the Germans have just reported British Shermans as US forces?

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Quite possibly. Tieke in '..Firestorm...' describes the Allied forces as 'British tanks' but then mentions ' 200 American and British tanks' ( p.217 of the English translation ).

The battle of September 2nd was largely waged, as Erich has said, by 18 8.8cm Flak guns of SS-Flak Abt. 9 / SS-Pz. AA.9 which were mostly responsible for knocking out an estimated number of 40 Allied tanks.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

well I found something via 9th W-SS book bei Herbert Fürbringer to add to Martins post

Panzer-Flak Schlacht bei Cambrai am 2.9.44 some 200 Allied tanks encountered ..........

facing 18 8.8cm from the Flak Abt. Attack at 10.00hrs, SS flak HQ hub at Bourlon and holed up there at 17.00 hrs after Allied armor break through to the north at 15.00hrs and to the south at 14.00hrs. If I understand this map correctly disposition of the 8.8cm's were north from just east of Buissy south to on the southern end of Havrincourt and in between the heavy Flak were Pzgrnd's. Position to meet the Allied armor thrust was east of Canal du Nord, due to the final breakthrough by Allied armor the 9th Ss werfer and Artillery and recon moved into Cambrai as a way of escape. The 200 tanks were US with protecting infantry on the flanks. The 88's started fire from 3,000 metres with werfers and the 105mms pinning down the US infantry. In several hours of bitter fighting 40 US tanks were destroyed this right before the Allied breakthrough at 15.00hrs. The 88Abt. packed up and were moved NW to Neuville and Nordrand while the 4th was protecting with cover fire of their 3.7cm AA Fla, which finally during the withdrawl moved back into the c ity and south for the last defenses and the last bastion of arms as the W-SS wounded escaped......

my loose translation of the German

Thanks for the info chaps, I knew it wouldn't be a British unit there.
It seems strange reading about places I normally associate with the Great War, in fact later this month it'll be 90 years ago since my Great-Uncle was there with the Grenadier Guards.
Thanks for locating where the action took place, hopefully someone can identify which US units were involved. 40 tanks seem rather a lot to lose.
"The Great Swan", as the British called it always seemd to be the "fun" part of the campaign, large advances against minimal opposition, liberating French towns and villages.
It must have been quite a shock to meet such a strong defensive line.

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I'm still hedging my bets on the 2nd "Hell on wheels" Armoured Division. I am confirming

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Does it have to be an armored division? There are plenty of examples of a US infantry division with two tank battalions attached at the same time (that's over 100 tanks) plus a TD battalion or two (50-100 tracks).

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Best Regards,
JW

From what I have read, the 2nd was hell on wheels on the tails of the Germans. It was the first to cross into Belgium and the first to cross into Holland.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

If this was a British unit we we're looking for I could work this one out for myself.
As they're Americans I need help. Thanks guys.
I've just found this ,
XIX Corps Combat Chronology year 1944
Any leads here?
Looks like it's 30th Infantry Division.

Attached Images

2sept44.jpg (83.7 KB, 3 views)

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I'll look in my books.

I have a man in my church who was recce driving M-8s in the 30ID, I'll ask him also.

He may not know, though. He told me that there were several times that he didn't really know where they were because they had moved beyond that the maps would show

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Best Regards,
JW

Think I'm onto something, IDed some units in similar area but not having such large losses as 40 tanks.
From same site I linked to earlier.
113th Cav Rcn Sq Sept1944
Mentions battery of 88 mm guns and village of Cantaing which is in (roughly) correct area we're looking at.
This page 113th Cav Gp Sept 1944 says elements of 2nd Armored were off to the west and made a coordinated attack and reduced the enemy position.
Mention also made of 75mm and 88mm guns.

Thanks chaps, makes a change for me to look at an American battlefield.

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Excellent find but I am still reading that 2nd Armour is spearheading and meeting stiff resistance. 30th seems to come behind and clean up. Unless I'm reading it wrong. But at least you boiled it down to a few divisions

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Cross posted with you see post #16. Looks like you spot on with 2nd Armored, anyone got their Divisional History?

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Righto

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

This is all I can find in my books.

"It [2nd Armored] reached Le Neubourg 23 Aug 44 and resumed the advance 30 Aug 44, reaching positions northwest of Cambrai by 1 Sep 44. CCA crossed the Albert Canal on 13 Sep 44 and the Maas the next day."

Order of Battle US Army World War II, Shelby Stanton

I remember Mr Samford (from my church) saying that they (the 30th ID) were paired with the 2nd AD frequently in the drive across France.

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Best Regards,
JW