Hey, I noticed that we have all heard about the tough old B-17 and how it is a sturdy aircraft. We have all seen the photos of missing tails and large holes in the fuselage. The Lancaster looks like one sturdy bird and I was wondering if there are any photos of the Lancaste similar to those of the B-17 and any survival stories. Thanks Gents. Gotta give the ole bird her own sounding board

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

yes. ok where is Martin and others ?

individual RAF bomb group web-sites would be a fast draw. the Lanc indeed was a hearty soul living up to a rather high reputation even amongst it's rival German night fighter crews

the drawback which are few as it carried a huge amount of ordnance was the lack usually of a belly or lower fuselage gun platform/turret and maybe a weak mg armament overall

ok where is E.A. Campbell when you need him ?? he obviously can relate first hand

Erich, what you say is true and I read somewhere that the waist gun position was the least effective since it had a limit firing arc. Also, a B-17 had to downsize it crew because of weight, it usually pulled out the waist gunners. Can't remember where I read it but I do remember this info.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

never heard that about the B-17 ever, they needed the waist gunners due to the rear attacks by the LW in 1944 and the ever present danger of the Me 262 units rear attacks as the war progressed

There are some photos of damaged Lancs - I'll see if I can find some. ( Bill Reid won his VC for returning in a Lancaster which was a total flying wreck ).

But here we come up against the very different attitudes of the US and British authorities. Whereas photography was actively encouraged on US bases, it was actively discouraged on British ones ( taking photos privately was strictly forbidden ). I would imagine that damaged aircraft were frequently left unphotographed as being 'bad for morale'.

From a historical perspective, this is sad : there are so many wonderful 8th AF photos, whereas British ones are mainly 'official' posed shots, etc.

Also to be borne in mind is the very different war the B-17 and Lancaster were fighting. Flying through colossal daylight flak, and hit-and-run Luftwaffe attacks, the Forts often took incredible punishment and survived. In the night sky, flak was frequently either a direct hit or a clear miss ; and nightfighter attacks were calculated and very close-range. So Lancasters tended either to return virtually unscathed - or not return at all......

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Yes, Martin you make good points. Also add that I've never seen any "good" video of Lancasters, since the bombed at night and did not hold formations like the 8th.

But I guess our viewing pleasure wasn't first and foremost on their minds when they were determining doctrinal plans.

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Best Regards,
JW

There is one, and one only ; 'Night Bombers' which was filmed at RAF Hemswell by the second-in-command there, A/M Cozens. This is a superb film, and is the only colour record of life on a bomber base and also shows actual operational footage.

This was strictly unofficial ; Cozens was an early home-movie buff and hey - he was an Air Marshal, so he could get away with it !

But without his efforts, foresight and private expense, we would today have no colour movie footage of these historic sights.

Incredible.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Martin do you know if this has ever been re-mastered to modern day format / dvd ? sounds like it well would be worth a look

E ~

Yes - it's now available on DVD from Amazon and others - check under 'Night Bombers'......

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I have written an article that will be published in our local paper in January. When it's published I will post it here with the translation. It's the story of the a criplled Lanc ever that managed to return home after a steep dive , a fire, a lost gunner, and a tail that almost fell off. You will have to wait a few weeks though. I have also a picture of a damaged Lancaster under repair. If I find it Iwill post that one asap.
Damaged Lancasters were in fact often photographed, even by the Ministry of War. It was used as propaganda to show how sturdy they were. There was even a challenge as to who was the most damaged aircraft to have returned from operations

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a blurb for sister site ww2talk. go see the Lancaster thread started by Jeff and Ron's reply with the Lancaster crew link provided by him.........his brother. very pertinent for this thread as well and the date which somewhat blew me away as it has been one that I have studied personally for over 10 years........in the case of the last raid over Nürnberg on March 16/17, 1945, a very nasty air battle with many holed Lancs/Hali's arriving at home fields

Erich

During my research into my brother's death in action I had the privilege of meeting up with some of his fellow crew members
BBC - WW2 People's War - Sgt.Jack Goldstein, RAF Bomber Command and others from 166 Squadron.

I also amassed copies of numerous documents including Operations Record Book entries etc.

If any of these documents would assist your own research I would be happy to give you sight of them

Ron

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During the period October 1942 to January 1947 my wartime "Cook's Tour" took me to the following places:
North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Austria, Egypt & Germany.
My units were the: 49th Light Ack Ack Rgt.RA and
The 4th Queen's Own Hussars.

Ron thank you very much for your fine offer, I will take you up on that......

just sent you a private message

E ~

My G-Pop flew a Lancaster too. Looking at his log book I think he must have been hit or had some problems on one mission. Had to land at a different air field, spent a few hours there, then returned to base.

Anyways, I believe he flew with 97 Squadron (isn't there a thread here on that? I can't see to find it) and then at the very end of the war, I think he flew with 106 Squadron. I hope to get his logbook down here around Christmas (if i can remember to tell my sister to stop by the NJ house and pick it up for me) and can double check. Also have some pictures of his with his mates and squadron.

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Muss any possibility of making a copy of his books from December 44 onward to wars end for me for the data files on the guys ?

post pics to when you have them in your hot little hands please

E

Yeah, I will do. He only joined the war in 43 so the majority of it is training. I meant to bring them back with me other thanksgiving break but forgot. I should have them some time in january at the latest. Not sure about the pictures though - they're framed on the wall of my bedroom back home but won't be shipped down here till that house is sold.

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super and much appreciated............hey we can all wait of the pics when the time is right

am not trying to draw this thread off topic but here is a little something that friend and author R.M. have been discussing the last 2 days concerning LW victry claims and the response from RAF and the researching behind all of it..........quite tedious but always full of surprises

Hi Erich,

yes, on a number of occasions in 1945 it is impossible to match claims with any certainty or not at all, even with very detailed information, and these mainly occur when an air battle and losses were concentrated in both time and space. For example, many claims in 1945 were only recorded as being in a grid square (i.e. Planquadrat TB), so you can image a scenario when, say, four bombers crashed in that grid square and six claims were made in the grid square.

Yes, the map is similar in format to the one I'd originally made, and it will be the only such map (i.e. plotting claims and losses) that I know of in NJWD.

Cheers

the map will be included in Dr. Boitens NJW diaries next year.

E ~