[ 15. September 2003, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: Crapgame ]

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"The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here." - Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 19, 1863
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"The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past." - William Faulkner

It is sad that the governor can overturn what a jury has decided and a judge went along with. If the victims could have a voice in the matter then it would not be so bad, but now the families of the victims are screwed twice. Seems like the criminal always has more civil "rights" than the victim does.

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

I think this is good news. I don't like a justice system which is built on vengeance. The state's obligation is to protect society from these criminals and nothing else. A death sentence will not bring back a victim or make it easier for anyone, it only brings more negative things. I don't think the state has the right to execute its own citizens.

Best regards/ Daniel

Gov'ner Ryan is a M o R o N of the highest caliber. He did this to emulate clinton--not giving a $h** about the victims families. At least onething is that of all the ones he pardoned--none will ever see freedom anyway--they all now have life sentences without parole.

Nothing will really change with or without it anyway.

[ 13. January 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Hi Carl, I really don't think the families will feel better if another life will be shut down. I do, however, think that the families of the victims will be grateful if the state can promise to protect society from the murderes. By locking them up for good they will do that.

This may all have been a personal pr stunt. However, I do think this will change things, those criminals will spend their life in prison instead of having the lethal injection. Eye for an eye is a thing of the past.

Best regards/ Daniel

Hi CDS--in a way--I do agree with most of what you said but--as a former Correctional Officer with some years of experiance--I know and understand things from a different perspective--than others can if they have never had the job I had nor had seen and been through the things I saw and lived through.

For the most part--I agree--the death penalty really seems to do no good BUT--it can give the victims family a sense of completion in having the death penalty.

Simply in having the death penalty has almost no effect what-so-ever in a person committing a crime worthy of such a penalty. In other words--someone who is wanting to rob a convience store is going there to rob it--but event might happen and this criminal does much more than intended--like killing the clerk behind the counter for one reason or another.

Anyway--I am a firm believer in that about 1/2 that are in prison do not ever come back--unfortunately--the other half does. As somone who supervised thousands and tens of thousands of inmates over the years I spent working at three facilities--and seeing the same faces more than once come through the gates--kinda just doesnt give one a very positive outlook on inmates.

It really used to get me down and make me sad to see someone whom had been released--only to come back a few monthe or a year later. I found that the most part--most of these guys yes--they deserve their sentences--but that they deserved a second chance. However--I did also feel that some who messed up bigtime--do not deserve a second chance. For the most part--they are few--and do not fit in with the many.

I have been through riots---escapes and killings and I do not like what I witnessed. Ive escourted inmates that had a piece of steel stuck through their hear--through their eyes--etc etc. I witnesses an illiterate inmate get murdered while in his dorm--by another inmate. This inmates last name was Rutherford. He SHOULD have been put into a different dorm--far away from the ones in this dorm.

What happened was--that another inmate put a metal foot-locker lock into a sock and used it like Knights used their spiked weapon on a chain--I watched helplessly as this mans head and bones were crushed under the blows of that lock. When we finally got enough help to storm that dorm--Rutherford had long-since been dead. There wasnt a darn thing I personally could have done to prevent it from happening.

No offense meant but--you really need to witness what I did before you can really pass judgement on whether or not having a death penalty is right or wrong. In this case--I believe that the inmate that killed fellow inmate--Rutherford--Deserves the death penalty.

I can site many more stories if you wish--but only if I tell them exactly as they happened and usung the termenology that was used--which would incur racial epitomes.

What would you have done if you were in my shoes when Rutherford was being murdered?

How would you feel on witnessing the murder, and knowing that you cant do anything to stop it from happening?

Needless to say--I felt sick to my stomache for a looooooong time. I was VERY frustrated that I--could not do something in stopping his murder. I went through a kaleidascope of emotions.

And do you know what--his murder WOULD never have happened had the supervisors--done the proper thing the night before. Yes--I also worked that dorm the night before when all this came about that built up to Rutherford being murdered.

My stupid supervisors dropped the ball and shirked their duties--why? I do not know. Probably just so they would NOT have to stay past 10 pm and do more paperwork!

This happened in late 1998.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

PS, had I had been armed with a rifle--yes--I would have shot and killed the inmate who was killing Rutherford. I would have shot him in order to save another.

I guarantee you--I would not have wanted to do anything like that if at all possible--and DEFINATELY would not have enjoyed shooting the other inmate.

Luckily I never had to fire a shot the entire time I worked for the system.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I would like to add to what C.Evans said in his posts. In Texas there was a man named Kenneth McDuff who in the early 60's killed three people and was sentenced to death. Later the death penility was overturned and later after that in the 80's McDuff was released and killed four more people who did nothing wrong other than McDuff wanted to rape them. Again McDuff was sentenced to death, and this time it was carried out and he won't kill again.

Just because a governor can say the inmates are sentenced without the possibility of parole does not mean that a future judge of governor can come along and pardon them or communte their sentence and they can go out and kill somemore. Also there is the fact that these killers have nothing to lose by killing their fellow inmates or escape or kill visitors and guards.

Also while I am on my soap box I will say that justice is not equal or even close to being that way. If you have money, you can get a better deal than a poor person. Remember O J Simpson ?

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

You both have good points. I guess the real problem is that it's hard to guarantee anything. Obviously it's a difficult situation. What I'm trying to say is that I prefer a life sentence before a death sentence, I just don't think the state should be allowed to kill its own citizens. Many convicts have a hard time to adapt when they are released from prison, there's obviously a need for some kind of adaption program (please note that by this I'm not saying that the hardcore killers should be freed).

Best regards/ Daniel

Why does a resort to Judicial Murder make victims feel better?

Why is the US the only country other than Iran that still executes people under 16?

Why are there more people in prison for murder in the USA then total prison population for Western Europe?

Why does America cling to the death penalty without addressing the key problems in society which cause this high incidence of violent crime: namely drugs and easy access to firearms.

Why is there an acceptance that the state can kill the innocent through miscarriages of justice in order to kill the guilty?

Can the state take the life of its own citizens?

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

I think especially in light of recent news we have heard from a few different states regarding wrongly imprisoned inmates, the death penalty needs to be looked at.

I wonder what the ratio will get to before the US examines this... one out of every ten people wrongfully executed? Or will we wait until one out of every four executions is wrongful to change the laws?

To those that support the death Penalty... how many wrongful executions are "OK" for the greater good?

(btw... sticking with the WW2 topics, eh, Carl? )

[ 14. January 2003, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Thank you TA-152 for the back up. I also remember that sorry #@$#%^ McDuff as well. Im glad he will never have an opportunity to murder again--or rape. I also totally agree with you on the EX-juice--everybody knows he bought his way out of trouble and managed to so so because some idiot out there would use the race card.

Hi CDS--I agree with you--if at all possible--I preferr a life sentence too--but sometimes the death penalty is definately warrented. I cite the two examples above and can cite others if needed.

Case in point-- a friend of mine who I went to middle and High School with--was kidnapped--raped--murdered and stuffed into the trunk of a car parked in front of Brimages (SP?) house. I also KNEW the people that lived at that house--I used to deliver newspapers there at about 4am--and before the friend I am talking abouts body was discovered in the trunk of that car--I drove past that car several times--not knowing her body was in that car. My friends name WAS-- Mary Beth Kunkle . She was a very nice and beautiful lady--with an excellent personality. She was about to get married but ran into Brimage. He wanted to go out with Mary Beth --but she nicely pointed out that she was engaged to be married--and could not be his girlfriend.

So he proceeded to slap her around--kiddnapped her--took her to his parents home (his parents are some of the nicest people one could meet) there he raped her repetedly--beat her--burned her with cigarettes and strangled her. He then stuffed her body into the trunk of his piece of junk car-- THE car I happened to pass by every morning throwing the newspaper in their yard.

This happened in 1988-- Mary Beth was robbed of her future because of this #$%#^$&% criminal. Yes this jerk had been in prison before--I dont recall exactly what for except that it also had to do with illegal drugs.

Needless to say--this jerk had to be tried in a town so far away from Kingsville--to even think of getting him a fair trial--we ALL wanted this........ thing....... silenced forever. He was tried in Kerrville Texas.

Another case in point-- MY now EX-fiancee was kiddnapped and raped by someone who was in and out of prison so many times like it had a revolving door. Luckily my Ex-fiancee--was able to escape. He was in and out of prison for drug offenses and for rape TWO other times.

Adoption programs DO NOT WORK--its a waste of money and time. As I said--at least half (and im being conservative as the number is more accurate at about 66% will be put back into prison) will be back in prison in a matter of mere weeks. They made themselves social outcasts and DO NOT belong with Civilized people.

I DO believe that the state DOES have the right to choose execution for an inmate---depending on the circumstances. No I do not like executions BUT--I will support then because I know what one has to go through in order for execution to be thought of being used as punishment.

Jumbo--its not Judicial Murder--its Justice.

I dont know how to answer your second question except by saying: "If the crime fites the time....."

Having easy access to firearms DOES NOT make having them a problem. I personally own Three firearms--and I have never been a problem on society with any of them. Yes--my record is so clean that I can even apply for a Machinegun--if I wanted one and if I had the money to buy one.

More violent crimes are committed by jerks with edged weapons and with automobiles. In fact--crimes involving the useage of a handgun--has fallen dramatically--if you can find the FBI website--they will have the statistics for you there to look at as you see fit.

It is NOT accepted that if someone is executed by mistake. That is a gross miscarriage of Justice.

Yes--the state has the right to execute a felon.

More people in jails in the USA for murder than in Europe--might be true--I dont know the stats--but I do know that the USA has a bigger population than several European countries combined. If one has as many citizens as we do--their prison population will vastly expand--simply by numbers of people who decide that a life of crime is the way to go--instead of being a PRODUCTIVE CITIZEN.

If Germany or any other one European country, had near 300 million people like the USA does--then just because of the numbers of population--unfortunately they would have more people in prison and it would reflect the numbers that the USA does.

[ 14. January 2003, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Its now also known that England now has the worst crime rate in the world. My sources for this: CNN (communist news network--for short) ABC,NBC and CBS Evening News. Countless talk shows--radio and TV. www.sitreponline.com and the Good LORD knows what else.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Judicial Murder is not Justice. It is just murder sponsored and undertaken by the state. It has everything to do with revenge.

The Death penalty does not reduce crime. US states which do not have it have not got higher rates of crime than those that do. No evidence has been brought forward that it deters: the best and most rigorous studies indicate that it is the fear of getting caught, rather than the punishment itself, which deters.

As for the UK having the worlds highest crime rate according to a host of notoriously accurate US TV broadcasters, I would say that I felt far safer here in London than I ever did in DC, LA or NY. Perhaps we just record our crimes better? In terms of gun crime we have 68 deaths a year involving firearms (mostly black-on-black crime stemming from Yardie culture) whilst the US boasts 16,000 per year. I'll take my chances in Hackney and Brixton.

Hard cases make bad law. Killing people does not solve anything to do with rising crime.

If you want to stay in the humanitarian club with Iran, Thailand, Red China, North Korea, Iraq and all those other havens of liberal democracy and human rights then be my guest. We will continue, here in Europe, to refuse to extradite suspects to the US who may be subject to the death penalty. Good thing too.

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

As a supplementary you sem to have misunderstood my stats on Prison population. You have more people in jail for violent crime than we have in our TOTAL prison population in the EU. We have a greater population across the EU than in the USA.

Guns. Easy access to firearms is a problem in the US. How many incidents similar to Columbine have there been using daddy's weapons? How many deaths. Are those deaths worth your having the right to have guns? Why do you need them? How easy is it to get a gun in the USA? Was Moore opeing that bank account with free rifle a joke? Can you even understand how jaw-droppimgly insane this appears outside the febrile gun culture of the USA?

The UK has a higher rate of violent crme than the USA except in 2 key areas: Murder and Rape. Aggravated Assault and Aggravated Burglary don't happen in the US - the criminals just kill their victim in case the victim shoots back. So having guns in the home actually propells US murder statistics upwards! There's a cheery thought.

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"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Hi Junbo--good argument but it doesnt wash. It also looks as if we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. I do know what im talking about as I was a part of the system for years. there is no such thing as Judicial Murder--but there is such a thing as Justice--even if it is a rare thing these days.

Your absolutely 100% correct and I fully agree with you that the death penalty doesn not reduce crime BUT--where we will not agree is that with more armed citizens we have--there is less crime.

The fear of getting caught doesnt deter them at all from doing a crime--they are bent on doing one and will do it--regardless.

I also have to agree with you about TV newscasters being shall we say--less than accurate BUT--I have several friends in England--were born and raised British--and a few of them live in the London Brixton area--and they all say different. All I can do is repeat what I am told or what I hear--no need to "knife" the messenger. As for crime in New York--it is actully the WORLDS safest City now--ask any New yorker and they will tell you the same--and yes--I have several friends in New york as well.

As for LA--I have to agree with you in that that is a nasty place to live and I do not ever wish to visit there again nor live there. Been there once about 20 years ago--it wasnt quite so bad then but is now--thanks to gang activity. And speaking of gang activity--I KNOW there is much in England--London as well--and these are Aisian Gangs--who are actually worse than our punk gang members could ever be as their culture is much different than ours is. Please explain what "Yardie Culture" is? Ive never heard that term.

Nobody said killing people would solve crimes But also just say that to the next person you meet who loses a friend or family member to a stranger that killed their loved ones. I think you will not like hearing what they have to say.

I have personally lost a good lifelong friend to some jerkweed criminal. In 1992 in Dallas Texas. My friend--then a Corporal in the USMC--Gavin Bigger--the son of a Judge--had Christmas Leave from the Corps. He was going to surprise his Fiancee--by being there at Christmastime and was going to marry her then. He had a key to her flat and used it to get in--only when he got in--he heard noise coming from the bedroom and went to go investigate. He confronted I think 2-3 jerks who in turn atacked him with knives and other objects--and I think one even had a shotgun--but im not sure anymore. They killed him by bludgeoning him to death. I do not know if these things were ever caught or not. If they were or are--I think they should be put away for life and if it deemed bad enough of a crime for 12 jurers and a judge--I would hope they get put on death row. These type of people DO NOT deserve to be in the midst of civilians in public.


I dont know what point your trying to make by saying we are in the same club as iran iraq china etc--please make a clearer point on that and ill answer you as best as I can on it.


Nope--I did not misunderstand your stats on prison population one iota.

GUNS:

Easy access to guns in American isnt a problem--I as a gun owner have no problem what-so-ever in having access to guns. I like them and I like collecting them and I like to go T-A-R-G-E-T-S-H-O-O-T-I-N-G on occasion with my Walther P-38.

No where that I know of in the USA--do we get about 10 or more people together on horseback--sending out a dozen or so dogs and try to scare the heck out of a small defenseless FOX--into going up a tree so all the barking dogs can surround the tree--trapping the FOX until all the people on horseback all armed with SHOTGUNS--can arrive so they can SLAUGHTER this defenseless little harmless FOX--in that tree--knowing it cannot defend itself.

Your statements about those two insane highschoolers from colombine are as needless as mine were on the Fox hunting--but they are in a way related--whether you want to admit it or not.

Keeping this country a FREE nation is more than worth having guns. As the old saying goes: "If guns are outlawed--only outlaws will have guns." If I get married--I will teach my wife how to properly defend herself with a Pistol. I will also buy her one--most likely a 9mm.

Its easy to get a gun in the USA--bieing a law-abiding citizen of my country--I have NO difficulty what-so-ever in buying a gun. I explained about why I NEED them. Who is Moore? PLs explain.

I personally DO NOT CARE how jaw dropping this gun culture is to the rest of the world. You in your way are trying YOUR best at placing EVERY gun owner in the same catagory and I find that extremely offensive. I have neven been in anykind of trouble with the law in any way--shape or form and I do find it VERY offensive at you placing me in the same catagory along with the criminals.

No--having guns in homes DO NOT propell crime unwards--that is a cheery thought.

Before this gets even more out of hand--all im going to say is that we agree to disagree.

PS--no offences meant to any of my British friends for this posting.

[ 15. January 2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

All I can say is that I KNOW im not going to change your mind on this matter just like you will not be able to change my mind on this matter. [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Just a little input, isn't the foxhunting illegal now? Didn't they pass a law for a year or two ago?

Best regards/ Daniel [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hi CDS--I dont know--maybe Jumbo will be kind enough to answer that for us. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.