Please visit this website--and if anyone is interested in asking questions--I know the wife of one of the men who served in this ship and was wounded in the attack.

website is:

www.ussliberty.org

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Carl, nothing in recent history brings out more controversy than this attack, I have been promoting the Liberty issue for a long time now.

You have to be careful here, there is a big grouping of people that as soon as you mention the Liberty you are classed as anti Isreal and ive been called a lot worse..

These were American sailors attacked in international waters while serving their country, what happened afterwards including their commander receiving the MOH in a navy dockyard hidden away as if by shame is simply disgusting.

Ill say no more on the matter unless anyone is interested then Ill be willing to mail or post but not unless invited as its a contreversial issue, though it should not be, they were brave guys and the survivors are feeling very let down here.

I am in contact with Jim Ennes of the Liberty whom you may have come across on that site.

My sig file says it all for me.

And Im not American and Im not anti Isreal.

But the threats I have received for voicing the issue are unbelievable.

Regards

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Hi Urgh--I completely agree with you.

Also--dont let those threatening idiots win by not voicing your opinion.

I publicly and openly will voice mine ESPECIALLY on this matter.

Also--the wife of one of the USS Libertys crew--is working here today at the library. While Im here--or even at another time--if you want me to ask her anything--just let me know. [img]smile.gif[/img]

The more I get to know about this GREAT injustice--caused by ISREAL the more I get aggrevated that then Pres Johnson did nothing for his crew in which so many were killed and so many more were wounded.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Thanks Carl, Ill probably take you up on that, as Im constantly being asked question by people I talk to over here in some of the UK ex forces clubs I belong to when I try to get messages of support out of them or items on agendas to adopt the Liberty in friendship.

Most ex service clubs look on it as too political a hot cake to handle but I look on em as vets in need. Like our own. And deserving of our support.

That site is something else isnt it?

Most doubters can be won over just by visiting that site which gives free publicity reign also to any alternative views in its efforts to be seen as fair.

There are a lot of silly conspiracy theories abounding too, but usually by people wity ulterior motives of their own, the way I see it is it happened, no matter what excuses are given its about time someone let this crew put this to rest. They were attacked with violence and now they have to put up with being attacke again, for wanting closure.

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

That is a really good find Carl !! I have not been through all of the site yet but I will in time. Who was the Israeli Prime Minister at the time ? Is he still around today ?
I was not very old then so I don't remember the attack, but did it even get reported by the news media ?
I've heard that the Israeli lobby is as strong as the booze and tobbaco lobbists in Washington DC [img]redface.gif[/img]

__________________
Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Hi Urgh and TA-152.

Urgh--quite welcome--I'll be more than happy to help out. I MOST DEFINATELY AGREE they are vets in need. Looking at it generally, these vets are being treated EXACTLY like or even worse than ww2 German vets are. That is NOT right and they more than deserve what little they ever got--which is nothing.

According to the layd I spoke of--she said that right after this incident--all the surviving sailors were all dispersed to other duties or ships and not a one ever served with another from that ship. Damn shame--and also what then pres Johnson said on a tape: something like: They dishonored the US and the Navy and should have perished. I never liked Johnson before but--now I have a very strong disliking for him.

Its a great site and I sure hope Otto will add it to the links pages--to ensure it will always be available to see.

All I had time for yesterday was to look at the pictures posted--and I already totally sided with the Liberty's crew.

Hi TA--im not sure who their PM was and I was born that year--so I dont remember a thing. I think the Isreali lobby needs to be knocked back a few steps.

Also im all for the Govt to quit sending what is it? $3 Billion dollars to Isreal and another 3B to the Palistinians-when this money will be better used for research in curing diseases like Cancer--or Heart Disease--something in which all will benefit from.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I've brought this topic up several times on the Forums.
The Liberty incident has been getting a lot of exposure because of the 9-11 events.
Israel has a long history of blowing things up and then blaming it on the Arabs, trying to drag the United States into one of their conflicts.
You will find that a lot of the Liberty advocates believe Israel to be complicit in 911.
btw: who's sending $3B to the Palestinians???

[ 26. January 2003, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Knight Templar ]

Maybe so Knight and as Ive already stated the issue attracts a lot of hangers on that only have their own issues to mind.

But thats not the majority of supportors and certainly not the people this is all about...The Liberty crew.

The reason it has attracted so many hangers on is precisely the fact that every time it is mentioned be it on a forum or in a journal etc it is immediately jumped on by Isreali supporters who at once go totally off at a tangent and call anyone raising the issue antisemitic.

The crew if we are to believe some of the vile hatred being turned out are liars, anti semites and anti American.

This then attracts the other side who lay into them with the opposing view.

The Liberty issue has not just been reserected since the WTC, I was involved since 1996 on first hearing of it.

Many more were too. Although it seems to have attracted lots of attention since the wtc outrage.

The crew cant help this, they are the ones that were attacked, and are still being attacked it seems from all sides.

They did their duty, and many got killed and wounded doing their duty, their reward it seems for wanting a congresiional hearing is to be called antisemite and traitor.

I couldnt give a damn about isreal, arab, or the martians, my feelings lay with the crew. What are they asking for? Closure and recognition.

Jim Ennes, would have liked to put this away years ago, and is not happy with having to come out constantly to defend the crew from bigots on both sides. And now it seems not just antisemit but accused of being anti American.

He would like to leave this issue but cant and wont, not while his fellow crew are lambasted every time someone raises the issue.

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Hi Knight--Urgh.

Knight--sorry I havent seen this on your postings or I would have acted before.

I have to agree with you a bit--in that Isreal might be trying to pull a fast one here. I still differ on other issues--for the time being My main thing is that these men deserve to have justice--and that is why im taking up and joining their fight. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I think Urgh is very honorqable in trying to help and I give him my full support on this matter. If I can help--I will Maybe the THREE of us can help in some way

Im hoping that now--sinse they know of this site now--that this thing will continue to grow untill all wrongs are made right--for these vets.

Urgh hits the nail-on-the-head with his feelings--I feel exactly the same on this as he does and im sure as you do. I think were thikink alike today.

Im glad to see a few here who have the cran to stand up and fight for what they believe in.

So much so--im looking forward to any threats I might get--as I will send them all directly to the FBI and CIA.

At least we cannot ever be accused as being un-patriotic--can we?

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

"Closure?"
It's the US Gvmnt that wants closure.
They want this closed and done with; and if they have to hand out a few medals and trot out some politicians to make bullshit speeches, I'm sure they can manage that

There's much, much more here than the survivors' stories.
Johnson was complicit with the Israelis.
What conclusions are you going to draw from that?
Or, are we just going to give everyone a medal, write (another) book, and then just drop it?
The events of today all bear on 911.
And, when we look at the events of that day,
there are just too many issues pointing towards Israel to consider it all Osama:Open-and-shut.
Israel has pushed the Palestinians to the brink, and they've set the stage for an enormous confrontation. The timeline for their "Final Soultion" to the Palestinian Problem coincides almost exactly with our timeline for Invading Iraq. Any month now, Israel will start killings on a massive scale.
I couldn't care less about being called "Anti-Semitic." I see tanks and jets killing civilians with old rifles and rocks, targeting hospitals, and that's really enough for me.
Israel has always made it known that they will do absolutely anything necessary to achieve their goals: whether it includes killing Americans-or even other Israelis. Why should we leave them out of discussions about religious fanatics?

[ 26. January 2003, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Knight Templar ]

Knight, I agree the Govt would want closure, this debate on the Liberty is certainly not what they need at this time.

As to closure, the medals that need to be awarded have been awarded, the people are not after medals, money or publicity to seel books.

Yep, there is a lot more to it I'll agree, but what the crew and families of the dead and wounded want is not medals, they want America through the govt maybe to admit this happened and stop pushing it under the carpet, they want Johnstones role in this, brought to the fore, they want to know why US aircraft on their way to assist them were stopped by Johnstone and his defence secretary. They dont want answers exactly, they know the answers, they want closure in the sense that America accepts that this happened that it was not freindly fire, friendly fire supposes you dont know the target.
They want the folk that call them antisemit, unAmerican reigned in by the majority of right minded folk in America that they believe are being kept in the dark on this issue. More casualites as a percentage of crew were killed and wounded than on any action since the war I beleive, and yet they are lambasted at every turn in their efforts to get a congressional hearing.

Too many have died in the interviening years, and maybe thats it, maybe the story is hoped will die when the last of the crew die too?

America was attacked on that day, and American forces sent to assist were ordered back by the commander in chief. They want this recognised they are not anti semit, or anti Isreal though I wouldnt blame them if they were, Napalm, lifefafts machine gunned, torpedoed, air and sea attack and they did something that maybe wasnt wanted, they survived to tell their story. They were there, none of the critics of their story was, and yet the crew are liars.

Many theories exist, many I dont agree with, operation Cyanide for one I think is off par, cover up of Sinai massacre, my own view not the reason, America had told Isreal at the time of the war that Golan heights attack would be hard to support in States they wanted Isreal to hold back there, Liberty was an intelligence ship, spy ship, none the less she was in international waters with flag flying.
The NSA had sent some of their civilian ops who were Russian speakers on this sailing, My own view is she was there to monitor Russian air crews and gather info on the new Tuplov sitting on Egyptian airfields but what do I know.

But I like you am certainly not worried about being called an anti semite, not for bringing up the Liberty, and having the gall to critisice Isreal, the anti semit phrase is bandied round too much now for it to mean anything, say anything critical to Isreal and your branded.

The JDL of New York has a enemies of Isreal listing with names addresses, phone numbers, emails and details of people private lives, most made up, and even on one guy the info he has a registered gun in the house. As well as address details of his mother.

Some on the latest list were on there for raising the Liberty issue, Carl the FBI were not interested when people complained the list stayed up, I contaced the host of the web site who was aghast and immediately removed the site.

Its up again now with another host, ive had the threats and they dont work, Ive had the virus attacks and so have the Liberty crew on their email accounts. Its par for the course.

I did come on here to discuss ww2, not the Liberty, my sig though I wont apologise for, but I will say this, I am happy NOT to discuss it on here for the sake of the site, which to my knowledge contains a lot of sensible guys and gals, who want to talk ww2.

Id just advise anyone wanting to talk of this issue here, that you will eventually attract the nutters on both extreme wings of this story, and not really fair on the other members of the group or Otto, if his site then gets the usual Denial of service attacks that end up going with the issue.

Me Ill fight on for these guys, but no necessarrilly on here, as it could cause damage to the site and group, thats not me scared thats me fighting elsewhere and not wanting others to suffer if it is raised.

Cheers.

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Urgh:
For all your talk about "Nutters" on both sides, it should be pointed out that very often organizations such as this are infiltrated by government types seeking to defuse the arguments
and redirect the process towards less inflamatory positions. Asking the US Gvnt to reveal Johnson's connection with Israeli intelligence is pointless and absurd. Likewise, trying to get the US Gvnt to "admit" that they used these sailors as political pawns is a complete waste of time.
What the Gvnt would like to do is to steer the discussion down blind alleys (trying to obtain a governmental "confession,") minimize the significance of the event with relation to what is happening today ("Israel is run by different people today and you can't determine an historical pattern,") and to minimize the argument in general by associating critics with "Nutters" of the other side.
This last point is a very common tactic.
Critics of Israeli policy are foolishly mixed-in with Zionist extemists for the purpose of calling the whole bunch "Nutters." In this way, the real significance of the Liberty incident is diffused
with the most shallow ad hominem attack.
It is quite obvious that you wish to minimize the collosal political significance of the attack, that you adamantly refuse to put it into any historical perspective, that the attack has no bearing whatsoever to events happening today, you are quick to call anyone looking for more significant answers a "Nutter," and that your goal is simply, "they want America through the govt maybe to admit this happened..." And, in a round-about way, you are discouraging forum members from discussing this matter as it does not directly bear on the events of WW2.
If the JDL stumbled across your explanation of events on this forum, I would be very surprised if they were upset at all with anything you had to say.

[ 27. January 2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Knight Templar ]

It is quite obvious that you wish to minimize the collosal political significance of the attack, that you adamantly refuse to put it into any historical perspective, that the attack has no bearing whatsoever to events happening today, you are quick to call anyone looking for more significant answers a "Nutter," and that your goal is simply, "they want America through the govt maybe to admit this happened..." And, in a round-about way, you are discouraging forum members from discussing this matter as it does not directly bear on the events of WW2

Excuse my French Knight but what a load of crap, you dont know me, you dont know what I do, or my political leanings or my views of Isreal, those views are my own and are perfectly clear to those that know me.

My views on the present rush to war and Isreals involvement are actually unprintable. My involvement in the anti war movement is not confined to news groups and forums, its a physical one. My knowledge of Isreali brutiality in Palestine is not to be found wanting by anyone.

I have friends who have been on montioring missions to Palestine and have been shot at by untrained panciky 18 year old excuses for soldiers, I have seen what Isreali tanks can do to people breaking the curfews to feed their families, I have seen the pictures smuggled out first hand of Palestinan hospitals smashed and the civilian adminitstration systimatically destroye, I have first hand pictures of Isreali troops digging up water pipes on the west bank that serve the local Palestinan populous, I know about the ambulances stopped at roadblocks with casualtes needing treatment and kept waiting for hours before being allowed through. I know all about the stupidity and callesnous the Isreali troops use when entering adjacent homes of innocent civilians ie blowing holes in walls not with the purpose of finding terrorists but more to do with making life inhabitable for the populous, Im no fool either I know of suicide bombers and Palestinan snipers and killers of settlers but I also know but not dismiss the reasons why they do what they do.

I know the vaunted Isreali IDF can release missiles from f16's at tower blocks that they cannot possibley know house no civilians indeed I know that they know they do, and I know my govt give export licences for F16 head up display units for these brave pilots.
I know that unlike British troops the IDF havent the first idea on crown control and prefer live rounds to rubber bullets. As I say Knight you dont know me at all, yet you presume, and you presume too much.

As for trying to stop people here discussing said issues that is little more than an insult, read again, I dont aim to stop, I am warning that if they do then be prepared for the nutters and there are nutters on both sides, whether you like it or not, will vistit the boards, there will be denial of service attacks, and there will be numerous hacking attacks. I am willing to put up with that, but are the rest of the forum members, and will you be the one clearing the board, or if antisemitic complaints are made or harrasment will it be you or OTTO who has to anser to authorites for any death threats, and dont tell me that does not happen the net and forums are full of it. One board in UK I helped set up was recently closed by people inciting racial hatred and I fully believe it was Isreali supporters themselves that did the inciting and then complained, but because of UK laws the site was taken off air, no choice that or be prosecuted.

You dont know me at all Knight, I have no problem discussing Isreal, but this no matter how you feel is not your board, and like many others it can be closed down if there are enough complaints.

There are many political boards some really good ones, if anyone wants names of some really incitefull discussion boards then mail me. But dont think Im unwilling to discuss anything on present problems. I am, I do, and will never be stopped, I also have manners and feel that anyone wishing to invite these discussions must be aware of where it can lead.

I am also in touch with the likes of Allsion Weir and many others on this topic I was responsible for removing her name from the Jewish Defence league site, you dont know me Knight and never will, but to assume as you do is out of order. Simple but true.

Nice assumptions Knight but completely wrong.

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Urgh:
You have completely evaded the direction of my argument, the obvious name-dropping and pointless I-know-more-than-you-do diatribe notwithstanding.
I suppose that when the MAINE was blown-up there were also people running around trying to limit the scope of discussion to the servicemen killed and injured, emphasizing the strictly military significance of the event, and labeling those trying to draw any political conclusions as "Nutters."
You're right to say that I "don't know you," as your goals are so vague and your political position so shallow that one can only guess what it is exactly you are trying to achieve.
(Btw, the President at the time was Lyndon Johnson, not Johnstone.

Yes the spelling, nice to see you on the ball, you did not though correct any of my grammar, thank you for that. Im well aware of who the president was, your corrections of spelling say a lot of you on issues though.
Its fast typing actually on a portable that is the problem, keys too close togehter at times and big fingers. But no worries, please feel free to correct any future spelling mistakes I may make.

I know more than you do? No dont know how you get to that conclusion what I wrote was a a precis of what is happening in Palestine, thats not a I know more than you routine, its more a decleration of which side I support but you see what you like it is of no consequence.

Name dropping, Allison Weir? No not name dropping just an example of my commitment to a cause I believe in, the name was used to prove that commitment, again of no consequence.

Limit the scope? Again you have no idea of what my scope is, your after an argument thats fine too, I do those just as well, but Im wandering what your purpose is? My commitment to a cause doesnt need proving to you though does it? Just as yours doesnt need to be proved to me.

And as you dont know me you cannot comment on my political goals or convictions, as to vague, they are not but again of no consequence to you I should think.

As to nutters on both sides, nutters there certainly are but show me where I said there were no political conclusions to be drawn? I have made myself as plain as can be that Isreal attacke them, in international waters, and Johnstone, was implicated, perhaps you should read again? And as to your defence of the nutters im begining to ask myself why you shout so loudly in their defence. Whether you like it or not there are extreme jewish supporters and extreme antisemits involved in the issue, the shout loud and they shout often.
And they dont shout about the Liberty they shout at one another. Kids in the schoolyard.

In my view Isreal are baddies, not goodies.

And you still persist with the view that I am trying to stifle debate on the issues, I think you need to read again, please feel free to debate, I have no problem you dont need my permission to do so, If you would like to carry on wity your insults then feel free to do that too. I havent a problem with it.

What in your view is the political significance of the Liberty incident?

I think youll find we have more in common than you think. But carry on I dont think it me thsts evading anything.

By the way ive missed an s off it above.

Your spelling seems tip top though.

Which side of the fence do you sit on by the way? Or is it changeable?

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

While we are on the subject Knight, what are your views on the clean break report and Pearles involvement in its contrucion?

If you want to see cause and effect if you havent read that report and its obvious connotations on US policy in the Middle East today and to whos benefit it is then please get a copy.

Written in 95 I believe and the future or today and todays present problems and how they were pushed foreward is obvious for anyone to see reading that report.

A document written by Pearle and others for Isreal.

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Are you American Knight? If so what are your views on Aipac and how that effects the situation of today?

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Hi Knight--I KNOW the govt wants to push this issue into the closet--thats why WE need to keep it open. Go to the Wehrmacht forums--its a VERY lively discussion there as well as here.

Im controversial at times--aint I?

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

C.Evans:
You're a real troublemaker, you are!