I’ve just watched some naive woman reporter on TV, standing by a T34 pointing to entry and exit points in its turret caused by a US depleted uranium shell. Perhaps she got a couple of good lung-fulls? Lung-fulls of what?

“After more than 50 years producing atomic weapons and nuclear energy, the
USA has 500,000 tonnes of depleted uranium stored, according to official
data. Depleted uranium is radioactive also and has an average lifetime of
4.5 thousand million years. This is why such waste has to be stored safely
for an indefinite period of time, an extremely costly procedure. In order
to save money and empty their tanks, the Department of Defence and Energy
assigns depleted uranium free of charge to national and foreign armament
companies. Apart from the USA, countries like the United Kingdom, France,
Canada, Russia, Greece, Turkey, Israel, the Gulf monarchies, Taiwan, South
Korea, Pakistan or Japan purchase or manufacture weapons with depleted
uranium.

When a projectile hits a target, 70% of its depleted uranium burns
and oxidises, bursting into highly toxic, radioactive micro particles.
Being so tiny, these particles can be ingested or inhaled after being
deposited on the ground or carried kilometres away by the wind, the food
chain or water. A 1995 technical report issued by the American Army
indicates that "if depleted uranium enters the body, it has the
potentiality of causing serious medical consequences. The associated risk
is both chemical and radiological". Deposited in the lungs or kidneys,
uranium 238 and products from its decay (thorium 234, protactinium and
other uranium isotopes) give off alpha and beta radiations which cause cell
death and genetic mutations causing cancer in exposed individuals and
genetic abnormalities in their descendants over the years.
In its 110,000 air raids against Iraq, the US A-10 Warthog aircraft
launched 940,000 depleted uranium projectiles, and in the land
offensive, its M60, M1 and M1A1 tanks fired a further 4,000 larger calibre
also uranium projectiles.”

This and more information from:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE..._uranium1.html

No.9

Depressing.

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Thanks for the link. Yes Martin it is very depressing.

__________________
And when he gets to heaven
To Saint Peter he will tell
One more soldier reporting sir
I have served my time in hell

That is something I didn't know-I just took it as another one of those technical ordanance names-HEAT, Tungsten Bore etc etc, never actually thought about the very evident URANIUM!!!

So the A-10 raids, do you mean that our guys are breathing in that substance as they advance through Iraq?

__________________
"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

Is what they are trying to say that the metal is not radioactive until it oxidises ? If this is so, It does not agree with what I was taught about radioactive material. If not then why do the people that load the planes and tanks not getting ill ? Radiation will penitrate the skin and bones regardless of the state it is in.
I don't think the dust has to be in the lungs to cause illness if it is radioactive, but I am not sure what the people who put out the article are trying to put foward.

I am sure that Gulf War illness is real, I just am not sure about what these people are saying is not a half truth. If something is radioactive, it is radioactive regardless if it is in powder form or solid metal form.

__________________
Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

DoD News Briefing
COL James Naughton, U.S. Army Materiel Command
Friday, March 14, 2003 -- 1 p.m.EST
(Also participating; Dr. Michael Kilpatrick, (OASD HA) Deployment Health
Support Directorate

There is dust
COL. When DU does strike armor and that oxide is created, it falls to
the ground very quickly -- usually within about a 50-meter range.

There is not dust
COL. If you look at hole where the depleted uranium round went in and out, there is
an increased radiation where that metal was essentially welded onto the armor.
But that's not going to go anywhere. It's not going to fall off. It's welded
onto that armor.

There is dust
MR. KILPATRICK: We have an extensive training program on depleted uranium for
military members. The soldiers' common task manual explains that depleted
uranium, if it is used on the battlefield, and you see a tank that has been
taken out by depleted uranium, the first rule is don't go into damaged
equipment on the battlefield. That poses a hazard. There may be unexploded
ordnances, there may be other chemicals that were in there from a fire that
burned. And if it was taken out by depleted uranium, there may be oxide that
you don't want to inhale. We want to minimize any exposure, at least to the
lowest level as possible. If somebody needs to go into a tank that's been hit
with depleted uranium, a dust mask, a handkerchief is adequate to protect them -
- washing their hands afterwards. So the colonel is right, nobody here has fear
of it. But there are people who want to ban nuclear weapons, and they try to
link depleted uranium to nuclear weapons. It's not a nuclear weapon. It is a
heavy metal that just happens to be radioactive. It's lower than natural
uranium. It's used in a lot of industrial settings. It's used as ballast in
rudders on ships, in airplanes. It's used as essentially the protective
mechanism, if you will, for radioactive medical materials that are used in
hospitals for diagnostic procedures -- kind of a shielding for that high
radioactivity, so that it has a lot of commercial use. And it again is not a
hazardous substance.

(Are these a pair of all-star wankers?)

Q: Well, you just said it but I would like to ask the colonel -- you've implied
it, but you haven't said it. I assume that you fully intend -- if there is a
war in Iraq, you fully intend to use depleted uranium.

COL. NAUGHTON: As a practical matter, if we use Abram tanks, we have no choice.
We do not have an alternative for the Abram tank.

Q: And the A-10.

COL. NAUGHTON: And the A-10. Well, the A-10 -- there is an HE [high explosive]
round for the A-10.

The Air Force was a principal user during the first Gulf War. They fired
the ammunition from their A-10 aircraft, 30 millimeter gun system.

The Army was the second largest user. We fired most of our
ammunition from the Abrams tank, approximately 50 tons, as indicated on the
chart. And the remaining 11 tons of ammunition was fired by the Marine Corps,
again principally from tanks and the Harrier aircraft, the AV-8.

We have two military uses for depleted uranium. The first
one is to make penetrators. Penetrators are what we use to penetrate armored
vehicles, kinetic energy weapons like the MA-29 series, ammunition for the
Abrams tank, use the energy that's created when the bullet is launched from the
bore of the canon to breach the armor on the other end. So you want something
that's very dense and very hard, so that when it reaches the other end, instead
of splattering like you would expect a lead bullet to do, it actually retains
its shape and drives through the target.



No.9

So the US is responsible for all its soldiers who have this strange Gulf War I syndrom.

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Its not that simple if you were to look at the govt sponsored tests on vets etc in Canada, US and UK Erwin.

My own view is that Gulf sickness probably does have something to do with it along with the cocktail of injections taken by the troops in Gulf war1....

The official govt lines of enquiry though seem to go along the lines of those in UK, whereby they have tested some of the vets against a similar age and fitness grouping of population who did not go to Gulf etc, and then compare health and fitness problems...They at least in the UK have not found anything to ascertain the reasons, although they continue to test...Canada had an indepenant test regime which seemed to point to DU as a cause but has since been talked down by govt medical professionals.

I dont know or offer a reason for Gulf sickness but I dont think these vets are complaining about just nothing. Some of the birth defects seem to be pretty horrendous.

And my trust in my govt to investigate such things has been impaired by the crap they did and put out to excuse Porton Down trials and the Nuclear test vets of the fiftees.

I had two friends volunteer for Porton Down common cold tests in late seventies, both are ill both are mentioned in the case against the govt, but then both are like me, no longer young and suceptable to illnesses as we get older I suppose...

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Chemical cocktail - very valid point urqh. Three issues in G.W.I., (1) were all the drugs administered really comprehensively tested? (2) were all the drugs necessary? (3) whatever, the drugs were NOT tested for use in combination with each other – i.e. they may be reasonable safe used singularly but no one knew how they may interact when used together?

As far as I can ascertain, in this war the drug cocktail is not compulsory???

Nothing new, troops were exposed to drug experimentation in W.W.II. A friend of mine in No.2 did take part in performance enhancing drug tests.

No.9

TA152: The danger from dust is far greater than that from the complete cell because of the greater surface area and penetration. What I mean is that if you have a radioactive shell and you are dressed your clothing will provide some protection (it is enough to block alpha particules and some beta particles), on the other hand if you inhale the dust the squamous epithelial cells (flat and wet to those of you who aint biologically minded) of your lungs and bronchi will be exposed to the radiation and it will cause considerably more damage than the complete shell. I am not sure that I can see why the shell is not radioactive until it oxidises but I always believed that the DU provides the core of the projectile so that until it is fired it is enclosed and those handling it are protected. Anyhow, it aint nice stuff, I am going to try and find the REDOX equations for the DU so that I can work out what will happen when its oxidised.

__________________
There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Blimey Stefan......Ive got this cough mate...3 years now..comes and goes...doc says chest infection...anti biotics chest xrays normal stuff..

What do you reckon Stefan? Can I sen you a X ray?

Rugby..we was robbed guv...

Seriously though....the amount of illness in children in the Balkans is getting quite suspicious too..Its not a big interest of mine, although my own personal belief is that DU shells do cause problems and our vets deserve a concise explanation and care if needed..But were some of the munitions from the sky in Kosovo...did they contain any DU?

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Kosovo, A10 "tank busters" jets and other planes dropped 31,000 DU bombs on Slobodan Milosevic's armor.

No.9

Well in that case, not going to be scientifc on this, but maybe we should expect some Ifor, Kfor, and what the hell for guys showing some symptoms soon...Given that they would not have taken a drug cocktail mix? Could be a good start for those in the know.

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

I feel really suspiscions that you are taking the mickey mate . Sorry for putting on the pebbel goggles and lab coat but as part of my Biology A level I have to look at respiratory diseases and predictably enough DU sorta came into my wider reading. As for the cough, stop smoking or sanding asbestos. I agree though, soldiers do deserve an explanation for what is going on, though I don't think the forces should have to foot the bill for the compensation that will be demanded.

__________________
There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Mickey taking, me? Shurley shum mishtake...

Compensation? Now were hitting the nail on the head...

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

I think maybe I have miss judged you, how could i ever think you would stoop to the depths of sarchasm and mickey taking, I apologise for making such a slurr on your character.

As for compensation, I thought we all knew that this was the whole issue in the first place, the government cant tell people the whole story (they blatantly know it) but the vets will demand compensation and the gov don't want to pay. Seems to remind me of the homes fit for heroes thing.

__________________
There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Stefan that would make sense if the DU is in the core of the shell.
No.9 you will have to find a web site on how they make the DU shells at the factory.(good luck, you'll need it!)Also find out where the shells are made and what corp. makes them.

__________________
Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Ill hazard a guess at the corp one TA...Would it be Rayathon? Or would that be a good place to start...

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Current Uses of DU

DU is currently used in kinetic cartridges for the Army’s 25mm BUSHMASTER cannon (M2/3 Bradley Fighting Vehicle), the 105mm cannon (M1 and M60 series tanks) and the 120mm cannon (M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams Tank). The M1A1 (HA), the Heavy Armor variant of the M1A1, also employs layered DU for increased armor protection. The Marines use DU tank rounds in their own M1-series tanks and a 25mm DU round in the GAU-12 Gatling gun on Marine AV-8 Harriers. The Army uses small amounts of DU as an epoxy catalyst for two anti-personnel mines: the M86 Pursuit Deterrent Munition and the Area Denial Artillery Munition.[210] The Air Force uses a 30mm DU round in the GAU-8 Gatling gun on the A-10. On a very limited basis, the F-16 can be modified to an A-16 ("A" signifying "Attack") with the addition of the GPU30 gun pod for close air support. The A-16’s GPU30 gun pod is capable of firing 30mm DU rounds. Flown only by the New York Air National Guard's 174th Tactical Fighter Wing, the A-16s flew only one Gulf War mission (on February 26, 1991), firing approximately 1,000 30mm DU rounds.[211] The 20mm DU round developed by the Navy for use in its shipboard PHALANX Close In Weapons System (CIWS) remains in service; however, since Fiscal Year 1990, the Navy has procured only tungsten rounds for the CIWS. The 20mm DU rounds remaining in the inventory will be used until the supply is exhausted.[

DoD News Briefing
COL James Naughton, U.S. Army Materiel Command
Friday, March 14, 2003

“This is why the U.S. Army prefers to use depleted uranium over
tungsten ammunition. If you look on the chart you can see that the depleted
uranium is a material that has a characteristic that allows it to sharpen
itself as it penetrates the target. The uranium shreds off the sides of the
penetrator instead of squashing or mushrooming. If you look at the lower
picture, which is what happens with tungsten, the tungsten mushrooms. The
result is the depleted uranium will penetrate more armor of a given character
and type at a given range than tungsten will, no matter how we design the
penetrators.”



Facilities for Fabrication of Depleted Uranium Ammunition
Country Owner/Plant Name/Location

France SICN (100% COGEMA ), Annecy

United Kingdom
Royal Ordnance Specialty Metals Inc., Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Royal Ordnance PLC, Chorley, Lancashire

USA Aerojet Ordnance Co. Chino, CA
Aerojet Ordnance Tennessee, Jonesboro, TN
Alliant Techsystems Inc. Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant, New Brighton, MN
Martin Marietta Energy Systems, Milan, TN
Mason and Hanger, Iowa Army Ammunition Plant, Middletown, IA
National Manufacturing Co. ,St.Louis, MO
Primex Technologies Inc., (formerly Olin Ordnance Co.), Red Lion, PA
Starmet Corp., (formerly Nuclear Metals Inc.), Concord, MA

No.9

Very good research No.9!! If I had the power, I would make all the Army Generals and corprate excuetives breathe the dust to prove to the troops it is not harmful.

Of course I am not going to hold my breath for this to happen ! What can we do to ban the stuff?

__________________
Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Actually, what with all the dust floating around, holding your breath might be advisable. Anyhow, so is the DU the core or the whole projectile? Also, it seems that it is intended to splinter and spread dust anyhow (to make it 'sharpen') so the army is hardly likely to get rid of it because its most favouralbe characteristic happens to cause a few problems.

__________________
There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Army Systems Containing DU
The Army uses alloyed DU in the 25, 105, and 120 millimeter (mm) kinetic energy cartridges. The Bradley Fighting Vehicle will use the 25 mm cartridge (not released for use as of May 1995) in its chain gun. The M1 and M60 series tanks use the 105 mm cartridge; the Army also plans to use the 105 mm in the main gun of the XM8 Armored Gun System. The M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams Tank main guns use the 120 mm cartridge. A cross section of a typical 120 mm DU round is shown in Figure 3-1. DU is used as an armor component on the M1 series heavy armor (HA) tanks. Small amounts of DU are used as an epoxy catalyst for the M86 Pursuit Deterrent Munition (PDM) and the Area Denial Artillery Munition (ADAM).

More than 50 current and former sites have been involved in the production, manufacture, development, testing and storage of DU for various DoD uses. As of February 1994, contractors had produced more than 1.6 million DU penetrators for tank ammunition and more than 55 million DU penetrators for small caliber (20, 25 and 30 mm) applications. More than 99 percent of the small-caliber production has been for the U.S. Air Force (30 mm GAU-8)

---- ----------
120mm DU Sabot round-------------Sabot separating from
(cutaway) for the M1A1 tank--------the DU penetrator

Army Contractors
Several contractors are licensed to load, to assemble and pack and to fabricate and test DU ammunition at Army or non-government sites. Alliant Tech Systems, Inc., and Olin Ordnance test DU munitions at the Energetic Material Research and Technology Center in Socorro, N.M. (formerly the Terminal Effects Research and Analysis (TERA) Facility). Alliant Tech Systems conducted open air testing of DU munitions for the Army at the Naval Weapons Center (NWC) in China Lake, Calif., from 1979 to 1989. The Army has completed remediation at NWC that meets NRC and California criteria. Alliant Tech Systems is also authorized to fabricate DU munitions at the Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant in Minnesota (NRC, 1992a). The General Electric Company is licensed to test DU munitions at the Ethan Allen Firing Range in Burlington, Vt. The Army has stopped using the Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant and the Ethan Allen Firing Range for DU operations; the contractors are decommissioning these sites according to the terms of their contracts.

Aerojet Ordnance Tennessee, Inc., (AOT) of Jonesborough, Tenn., and Nuclear Metals, Inc., (NMI) of Concord, Mass., are licensed to produce DU penetrators (Hickman, 1993; Vumbaco, 1993a). The Manufacturing Sciences Corporation (MSC) of Oak Ridge, Tenn., produces DU castings, bar stock, sheet and plate (Liby, 1993).

The M919 25 mm DU round is produced exclusively by Olin Ordnance in Marion, Il.; the rounds were originally produced by Aerojet Manufacturing of Chino, Calif., while the M774, M833 and M900 (105 mm) penetrators and the M829, M829A1 and M829A2 (120 mm) penetrators have been made by both AOT and NMI (Hickman, 1993). 105, 120 and 25 mm cartridges contain DU penetrators. The penetrators are produced under subcontract to a government prime ammunition production contractor (usually Alliant Tech Systems of Edina, Minn., or Olin Ordnance of St. Petersburg, Fla.). The prime contractor then contracts for the metal parts manufacturing and projectile assembly with Olin Ordnance of Red Lion, Pa.; Chamberlain Manufacturing of Waterloo, Iowa; or National Manufacturing Corporation of St. Louis, Mo. Two government owned, contractor-operated (GOCO) plants load, assemble and pack (LAP) the complete tank rounds: the Milan Army Ammunition Plant (MAAP) of Milan, Tenn., operated by Martin Marietta Ordnance Systems, Inc. and the Iowa Army Ammunition Plant (IAAP) of Middletown, Iowa, operated by Mason & Hanger - Silas Mason Company, Inc. (Van Dorn, 1993; Vumbaco, 1993a; Crumpler, 1993; Hickman, 1993). Aerojet performs LAP for the 25 mm DU rounds. Each facility operates under its own license.

NMI also produces cast billets that are used to make armor for the M1A1 Heavy Armor tank. During development of the M1A1 armor system, MSC also produced cast billets. The DOE fabricates them into DU armor at its Special Manufacturing Capability Site at Idaho Falls, which is operated by Babcock and Wilcox Idaho, Inc. The Lima Tank Plant in Lima, Ohio, operated by the Land Systems Division of the General Dynamics Corporation, installs the DU armor on the tanks and covers it with homogeneous rolled steel armor (McGuire, 1993a, 1993b, 1993c, 1993d; Liby, 1993).

Alliant Tech Systems, Inc., manufactures the M86 PDM and ADAM at the Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant in New Brighton, Minn. Very small quantities of DU serve as a catalyst in an epoxy molding compound that forms the body of these two mines. Each 206-gram mine contains approximately 0.101 g of DU. Ba