Does anyone out there know the truth about Ethanol?

Supposedly, producing 1.3 gallons of ethanol would cost apx 1 gallon of petroleum. Also, ethanol is supposedly less fuel efficient than gasoline, requiring something like 1.2 gallons too equal 1 gallon of gasoline.

Anyone care too comment?

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Maskirovka: Show the world one thing...then do another.

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It may be more expensive but burns cleaner, which is why it's so good.

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I had a small pickup that could use that fuel, and it was definitely less efficient, but as Stefan says better for the environment! As for the use of fuel to make fuel, it's pretty much that way for everything isn't it!

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This is a pair of Dutch resistance crystal radios, built into a small metal can, and a matchbox. The image is from a postcard bought at a Dutch Resistance Museum in Amsterdam. The matchbox is marked in Swedish, but Swedish matches were sold in Holland for many years..
Scott

Read the other day about a downside. To produce enough ethanol for the US , we would have use all of the land currently under corn cultivation and then some.

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Best Regards,
JW

A small price to pay!

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

I don't trust any information that comes from US based sources. I suspect a little tampering from the oil companies. Why do I say this? Well, Read a story of Brazil's public transportation as well as all government vehicles alongwith the greater population using ethanol with success. Soooooo, who is correct? Being that I know for a fact that the formula for converting coal into synthetic fuel was purchased by the oil companies yet not used is a good sign as to who is incorrect.

I would say that .3 gallons added up to the number of gallons used in the US on a daily basis adds up to a great amount of savings.

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Actually, I am happy ro see this kind of a response here! You can read this portion of wiki here: Ethanol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you also follow up with the section for some of the other links, you will see that something like 11-15 Billion gallons could be produced from the portion of US cultivated lands that could realistically be sustained for ethanol production {from corn}. You will also read the estimate of US gasoline consumption being between 140-150 Billion gallons/year.

What I have yet too find on wiki is the information contained in an issue of popular science. The claims there are that the 1:1.3 gas:ethanol ratio, while true for corn>ethanol is misleading in the extreme. What is not being discussed on wiki is the ratio for other crops being used instead of corn. The #1 ethanol crop is supposed to be sugarcane {the ratio for this crop I do not have}, followed closely by sugar beets.

The ratio claimed for sugar beets>ethanol is 1:8. or roughly 20 times as efficient as for corn>ethanol. The other interesting thing that isn't being discussed on wiki is that while ethanol does have a lower energy density that gasoline, it has a considerably higher octane rating. What this translates to is that while ethanol is less efficient if burned at the same compression ratio as gasoline, its only 75-80% as efficient. but if burned at optimal compression {apx 13.8:1, as opposed to apx 5.8:1 for gasoline}, it delivers the same fuel efficiency as gasoline and more horsepower!

If these figures are correct, then all along the public has been mislead into thinking that ethanol was not a viable alternative to fossil fuels. Can anyone provide a link too a site giving these figures?

Thanks.

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Maskirovka: Show the world one thing...then do another.

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Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel: Table of Contents

Brazil's Biofuel Strategy Pays Off as Gas Prices Soar

You're right about Brazil !

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here we go:
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/automot...cbccdrcrd.html

Basicly: "With all the buzz about hybrids, it’s easy to ignore our homegrown alternative fuel: ethanol. Clean-burning and infinitely renewable—we’re talking grain alcohol—ethanol is dear to environmentalists and economists alike. The standard 85/15-percent ethanol/gasoline blend (E85) is widely used in Sweden, but there are only 313 E85 fueling stations in the U.S. And motorheads aren’t clamoring for more, because E85 typically delivers inferior fuel economy; it has about 75 percent of the potential energy of gasoline, so it takes up to 20 percent more hooch to keep horsepower on par. But E85 also has a high octane rating (around 110), and Saab realized that a turbocharger could harness it. Turbos push extra air into the cylinder, and higher octane allows a fuel to better endure the increased pressure. So Saab cranked up its fans and created the BioPower engine, the first commercially available ethanol turbo. A computer samples the fuel mixture and adjusts boost pressure—from 5.8 psi for pure gasoline to 13.8 psi for E85. Running straight gasoline, the engine produces 148 horsepower, but E85 jacks it up to 184, with no penalty in fuel economy."

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Maskirovka: Show the world one thing...then do another.

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Y'all don't think that I am against ethanol, far from it. I would love to see us get off dependence from foreign oil. I just think we need to approach this realistically.

I was very surprised to find what nation is the single largest exporter of oil to the US............Canada, with Mexico #3.

Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries

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Best Regards,
JW

Slip you are very correct about mis information being out there about alternative fuel. About 20 years ago they were pushing gasahanol (wrong spelling) and it did not work, then they tried natural gas powered conversions to gasoline engines and the State and city spent millions converting vechicles to that and it did not work. Also in the past they looked at mining gas in garbage dumps. Also they recently pushed biodiesel and engine manufacturers said using it would void the engine warrenty so that has fizzled out.

If I had money to invest, alternative fuel would not look very attractive to me.

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I can't really answer this question but, for what its worth, I have a Bro-in-Law and two Nephews that work at Valero Refineries. My Bro-in-Law is a supervisior and one of my Nephews is currently working on an ""Ethanol"" project that is located in Colorado. What he is currently doing is building a miniature sized (but fully functional) Ethanol Plant. I don't know exactly what they are doing but, the Ethanol thing is an on-going thing that is being researched and tested. Whoever said that it would take all the Corn production in the USA to make gas is not only full of shit, but full of bullshit.

PzJgr has it correct about its usage in Brazil? I think he said? Anyway, its much cheaper and is much cleaner than using fossil fuels. Other than what my relatives have told me, I don't know squat about making gasolines from any sources. Anyway, my Nephew Nathan, is currently travelling around the country working on Ethanol projects for Valero.

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Working from memory.

388 million acres of currently used cropland in US. Not just corn, all crops.
200-300 gallons/acre. Using corn>ethanol.

388x200=77.6 billion gallons/year.
388x300=116.4 billion gallons/year.

Estimated US usage 130-140 billion gallons/year.

If you have different figures, please post a link.

PS, I would like too thank everyone for their shared interest in this area.

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Maskirovka: Show the world one thing...then do another.

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The problem with raising the compression ratio is that engine life will be shortened by the increased stresses put on it. This will be especially true on smaller engines like 4 cylinder ones. The choice will be either decreasing piston size or increasing stroke.

Here is another site:

EthanolFacts.com: Ethanol Production#

In 2006, 110 ethanol plants in 21 states produced a record 4.86 billion gallons of ethanol—nearly double the amount produced in 2000. The ethanol industry consumed some 2.15 billion bushels of corn, equivalent to about 18 percent of the nation’s third largest corn harvest.

Elsewhere on this site:

One bushel of corn yields about 2.8 gallons of ethanol.

This is kinda interesting. 2.8 x 2.15 Billion Bushels(BB) = 4.86 Billion Gallons (BG)?!?! These numbers do not add up! Can anyone give me a link to a site that gives the range of expected yield {in bushels of corn/acre}.

If we said that 1 bushel {of corn} = 3 gallons of ethanol {just for the sake of argument/making the calculation easier}, and we further use the 300/gallons acre estimate, this means that each acre produces just 100 bushels of corn?

An acre of land has 4840 square yards, so in order to yield one bushel requires 48.4 square yards?!?! That is like going to the football stadium and planting a patch of corn 3' wide stretching from the 0 too almost the 50 yard line. All that for one bushel?

Something doesn't add up.

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Maskirovka: Show the world one thing...then do another.

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Well instead of trying to produce ethanol right now we could just use what we have but are too afraid of mining. The US has plenty of un-tapped fossil fuels in its own lands but the environmental protection fools wont let anyone mine them.


If ethanol becomes the fuel of choise there is plenty of un used land and farming potential to fill the need.

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I have a cousin who works in research and development for Shell Oil, he told me that etahnol is a great way to go, but of course that won't happen until the oil companies make it profitable for them! They don't want to lose there piece of the pie! This is just his opinion, but I have a tendency to believe him over what the Oil lobby groups tell our politicians to say! Also, electric and Hydrogen vehicles have come a long long way! But like the "Tucker" which the big 3 kept out of the publics hands, so will the gas companies keep us on Oil until they can make a buck on alternative choices.

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This is a pair of Dutch resistance crystal radios, built into a small metal can, and a matchbox. The image is from a postcard bought at a Dutch Resistance Museum in Amsterdam. The matchbox is marked in Swedish, but Swedish matches were sold in Holland for many years..
Scott

In the beginning of January I start my quest for a degree in applied science. Renewable energy/Alternative fuels is my target career. I don't really want to end up working as a researcher for the fed! I am hoping to patent a couple of inventions along the way. I've got one on the drawing board that should sell pretty good to the people in the building trades and DIY home improver's club.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ckerposter.jpg
Tucker: The man and his dream! An awesome movie that should be required viewing for all Americans! I remember as a child being shown a car with three headlights, and asking why?

Tucker: The Man and His Dream - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Preston Tucker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Automotive History Online

You have too love this part of the wiki site:
"Preston Tucker's reputation rebounded after the acquittal. Investors from Brazil even approached him about building a sports car, the "Carioca". But he died from cancer before the project saw fruition.

Otto Kerner, the US Attorney who had aggressively investigated Tucker for fraud, ironically became the first Federal appellate judge in history to be jailed—for stock fraud".

You have too ask, If the 'Oil Rich' got away with that, what else are they getting away with? Oh wait, isn't our President the son of an 'Oil Rich' father? Back on topic, I still would love too get some reliable figures for ethanol crop yields on a per acre basis.

And once again, thanks to everyone for their interest in this area! Kinda restores one's faith, ya'know?

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Maskirovka: Show the world one thing...then do another.

http://maskirovka.blogspot.com/