First and last missions

**b17sam** · #1 (**permalink**) February 15th, 2003, 02:05 AM

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Erich --- Thanks for the welcome. You asked for the dates of my first and last mission. Here is a list of all my missions. The elapsed times are from wheels up to wheels down. For more info click on www.b17sam.com/missionlist.html

1- Ludwigshafen - Sept 9 ' 44, 7hours 30minutes, I.G. Farben Industries
2- Lutzkendorf - Sept 11 '44, 7hours 20minutes, Synthetic oil refinery
3- Hamm - Sept 19 '44, 5hours 30minutes Train Yards
4- Mainz - Sept 21 '44, 6hours 35minutes Train Yards
5- Frankfurt - Sept 25 '44 6hours 15minutes Train Yards
6- Cologne - Sept 27 '44 6hours 00minutes Opel/Ford Tank factory
7- Nurnberg - Oct 3 '44, 8hours 40minutes Tank and Diesel engine factory
8- Neubrandenburg - Oct 6 '44, 9hours 35minutes Airdrome
9- Schweinfurt Oct 9 '44, 7hours 30minutes Train yards
10- Cologne Oct 15 '44, 6hours 05minutes Railroad terminal
11- Cologne Oct 17 '44, 6hours 20minutes
12- Speyer Oct 19 '44, 6hours20minutes Target of opportunity
13- Munster Oct 26 '44, 5hours35minutes
14- Hamm Oct 30 '44, 5hours29minutes Train yards
15- Frankfort Nov 5 '44, 7hours10minutes Train yards
16- Hamburg Nov 6 '44, 7hours30minutes Oil Depot
17- Merseberg Nov 21 '44, 7hours55minutes Leuna Oil Refinery
18- Altenbeken Nov 26 44, 5hours55minutes Viaduct
19- Misburg Nov 29 '44, 6hours15minutes Oil refinery
20- Zeitz Nov 30 '44, 8hours05minutes Oil refinery
21- Kassel Dec 4 '44, 8hours40minutes Train yards
22- Stuttgart Dec 9 '44, 8hours00minutes Airdrome
23- Luxemburg Dec 18 '44, 5hours50min Dropped leaflets
24- Merzhauer Dec 24 '44, 6hours05minutes Air field
25- Remagen Dec 28 '44, 6hours05minutes Railroad bridge
26- Bitberg Dec 31 '44, 6hours00minutes
27- Prum Jan 2 '45, 6hours00minutes Communications center
28- Cologne Jan 6 '45, 7hours00minutes Train yards
29- Cologne Jan 15 '45, 7hours45min
30- Paderborn Jan 17 '45, 7hours30minutes Train yards
31- Ludwigshafen Jan 20 '45, 7hrs30minutes Mannheim bridge
32- Sterkrade Jan 22 '45, 4hours55minutes Synthetic oil plant
33- Cologne Jan 28 '45, 6hours49minutes Train yards
34- Niederlahnstein Jan 29 '45, 7hrs00min Train yards
35- Berlin 3Feb45 8hours50min Government buildings

Erich · #2 (**permalink**) February 15th, 2003, 04:25 AM

Sam :

Thanks a bunch ! I will write you a private mail next week when I return about several of the missions and your opinions on these raids overall.

Erich

Panzerknacker · #3 (**permalink**) February 15th, 2003, 11:02 AM

Sam,
Just a question on your raid to Speyer-what does 'Target Of Oppourtunity' mean-is it simply if you see a target worth destoying, you bomb it?

**b17sam** · #4 (**permalink**) February 15th, 2003, 02:24 PM

Panzerknacker,
Regarding the definition of target of opportunity -- If weather conditions prevented us from bombing the primary target, we were to proceed to the target designated at briefing as the secondary target. If we could not make it to the secondary, we were to seek a target of opportunity (T/O). Target of opportunity was defined as any identifiable enemy military or industrial installation.
Perhaps it should be noted that no 8th Air Force bombers were ever diverted from the target by enemy ground or air opposition. Only weather, which can be fierce in winter over central and northern Europe would be cause for diversion.

Erich · #5 (**permalink**) February 17th, 2003, 03:57 PM

Sam :

If I may ask.....

mission # 18 to Altenbken, I have the 91st bomb groups losses at 3. Is this correct ? And they were attributed to flak or fighters ?

The 2nd bomb division suffered under the attacks by Fw 190's of JG 301 this date, but JG 301 in return were pounced on by 2nd Scouts, 339th and the 357th f.g. I lost a cousin that flew with II./JG 301 on this mission.

also another, and sorry for going backwards here.

mission # 17 to Merseberg, the 398th bomb group lost 10-15 B-17's to Fw 190's and I see that the 91st lost 1 B-17. The cause for the 91st b.g. B-17 if you have this info ? As a pilot were you aware visually of the 398th being attacked ? I understand there was quite a bit of cloud cover over the target and am not sure if this existed high up into the sphere of the flying Allied bombers to hamper visual contact......thoughts ?

thank you sir !

Erich

**b17sam** · #6 (**permalink**) February 19th, 2003, 02:12 AM

Erich --- The 3 ships we lost on 26Nov44 was due to enemy fighters. We had just crossed the Zuider Zee on our way to Altenbeken when we were hit by about 70 FW-90's and Me 109's. The attack lasted less than 5 minutes when it was broken up by a squadron of P-51's. We proceeded on to target. I am now writing up the story of the 21Nov44 mission to Merseberg. It was in many ways one of the great 8th Air Force missions. It should answer your questions and a few more you haven't thought of yet. I will let you know when it is done (4 or 5 days more).

Erich · #7 (**permalink**) February 19th, 2003, 04:02 AM

Thank you Sam for the reply. Looks like I need to do some more research

please let us know when the 21 November 44 article comes up....

Erich

Peppy · #8 (**permalink**) February 19th, 2003, 04:06 AM

Dang, a WWII veteran! Welcome aboard Sam! I'm sure Otto will be right happy to know you are visiting here.

Great website by the way, very interesting stuff, and comprehensive too.

**b17sam** · #9 (**permalink**) February 20th, 2003, 08:21 PM

Erich --- Information you requested about the November '44 raids on Merseberg (Murdersberg) is now posted at www.b17sam.com/merseberg.html
A copy is attached here ---
Merseberg=Murdersberg
Sixty years later, It is still difficult to think of Merseberg without recalling the feelings of alarm and dread it held for crews in briefing huts of the 8th Air Force. Deep in the heart of central Germany, site of Leuna, the world's largest synthetic oil refinery, and by mid 1944, the primary producer for the Nazi war machine. Merseberg became Hitler's most fortified stronghold in all Germany, encircled with flak battery emplacements and squadrons of Luftwaffe Messerschmitts, Focke-Wulfs, and the world's first operational jet aircraft. A plywood replica constructed four miles south of the main Leuna refinery deceived many a bombardier. Merseberg, the primary source of oil for the Nazi war machine was to be more heavily defended than the capital, Berlin.
On November 2, 1944, the 8th Air Force lost 38 B-17's in one of its many missions to Merseberg. Our bomb group, the 91st, was attacked by over 100 FW-90's and Me 109's. In the ensuing aerial battle, we lost 6 of 12 ships from the 322nd squadron, 5 of the 12 from the 323rd, and 2 from the 401st. A total of 13 of our 36 crews of the 91st were MIA, missing in action that day.
Nineteen days later, November 21, the 8th sent 421 B-17's back to Merseberg led by our Group, the 91st. The weather was bad from the start, and by the time we were over Germany, we found it close to impossible to maintain formation inside massive clouds reaching higher than our altitude at 25000 feet. Our lead Group plowed on to Merseberg led by our squadron commander, Major Immanuel Klette. He decided to take the groups in a descent seeking to find a break in the clouds. When we finally broke through at 17000 feet, we discovered that more than half of the Groups had departed to seek secondary targets, targets of opportunity, or returned to their bases. Merseberg at 25000 feet was perilous enough, 17000 feet was madness.
Our Group, the 91st, bombed Merseberg from 17000 feet and miraculously lost only one ship of our 36 aircraft to flak. We discovered at interrogation that the Group behind us, the 398th, decided not to follow us, but to climb above the cloud cover. When they finally broke out at 31000 feet, over 50 FW-90's jumped them from out of the sun and destroyed 5 of them.
Later that evening we found out that the ship we lost, last seen on the return home with two engines out and the pilot reporting the third was about to blow any minute. He lowered the wheels and put the ship on auto-pilot before the crew bailed out over enemy territory. The unoccupied ship continued on, and was discovered by two bewildered British soldiers where it had landed itself in a snow covered pasture in Belgium. The crew was captured and spent the rest of the war in a prison camp in Germany.
Klette went on to fly 91 bombing missions, more than any other pilot in the 8th Air Force.

Erich · #10 (**permalink**) February 20th, 2003, 08:46 PM

Sam, once again thank you sir ! Yes the November 2, 1944 mission was a blood bath for the bombers as well as for two Sturmgruppen Fw 190 units the IV.Sturm/JG 3 and II.Sturm/JG 4. I would invite you to have a look at this material on these units via our web-site but we are giving it a total revamp before allowing viewing again.
I see now why the 398th got hit the way it did. This was my cousins first mission with 5./JG 301 and he was one of the 50 or so Fw 190's that attacked the 398th meeting his demise on the terrible mission of 26 November 1944 along the oil corridor as I call it......Misberg, etc.

again thank you for a different look.

more questions to come Sam

Erich

Bish OBE · #11 (**permalink**) February 20th, 2003, 09:15 PM

Very nice to have you here Sam. And especially nice to meet someone based at Bassingbourn.

I did my Army training there, from Oct 90 to March 91. I don't know if youv'e been back since the war, but they have a memorial to you guys, a B-17 propeller, just by the front gate. And the angers you stored your planes in were used as a gym and for other things.

I'd love to here what it was like there back then.

texson66 · #12 (**permalink**) December 18th, 2008, 01:44 PM

Sam thanks for the mission debriefs to Merseberg. I've added a couple of maps to orient those who aren't familiar with this area. The first map (satellite image) is the over all direct course to Merseberg from Bassingbourn. (Per Google Earth 513 miles or so)

The second image is the Merseberg area itself: note the industrial works south at Leuna as noted by Sam. To the northwest of Merseberg ther seems to be an abandoned airfield which might have hosted a lot of the Luftwaffe interceptors launched at the B-17s.

Sam, words do not adequately express my greatest admiration and gratitude for the tremendous efforts performed and extraordinary sacrifices made by the 8th USAAF! Thank you!

(BTW here is an interesting site of the USAAF bases in the UK during WWII)

WW2 UK Airfields of the Eighth USAAF

The Mission

The Target Area

urqh · #13 (**permalink**) December 18th, 2008, 02:09 PM

Great site Texson, memories for those of us this side of pond too...I remember a few of those places too. Cheers

urqh · #14 (**permalink**) December 18th, 2008, 03:21 PM

Was at Leiston only last week..buying sheep.....Now home to nuclear power station on a beach a few 'blocks' away.

Funny to think of the activity in this now peaceful quiet area, all those years ago.

texson66 · #15 (**permalink**) December 18th, 2008, 05:01 PM

Thanks, Urqh. I always think of the opening scene from the movie "12 O'Clock High" when I look at those abandoned towers and paved over/plowed under airfields.

YouTube - Twelve O'Clock High (Opening)

Someone posted this story at the Youtube site:

"I remember and old pilot I flew with years ago. He told me about a time many years ago when he was in England. He found an old abandoned military field. He was walking around and thought he heard the low rumble of bombers overhead. Of course he looked up and none were there.

A Farmer walked up to him and without having said a word to each other he asked "You hear them don't you?"

My friend, mouth hung open as he asked "How do you know?" "You're not the first one to hear them.""

Martin Bull · #16 (**permalink**) December 18th, 2008, 05:47 PM

No comment needed.......

STURMTRUPPEN · #17 (**permalink**) March 3rd, 2009, 12:10 AM

hi sam i am interested in reading your experiences in b 17's and it would be great if you wrote a book about them
cheers