2 btns per regiment, when?

Heartland · #1 (**permalink**) October 9th, 2002, 07:02 AM

I have seen several opinions on the state of German infantry division reorganization from 3 battalions per regiment to 2 battalions, during the battle of Kursk. In some places it is said to be almost universal by this time. Others claim the reorganization was completed "by fall". Yet others have Army Group Center reorganized, while Army Group South retained the old ways, which could possibly be combined with the previous version.

Does anyone have any good information on this, or a good source? Ideally on a per division level, but that may be hoping for a bit too much... [img]smile.gif[/img]

PzJgr · #2 (**permalink**) October 9th, 2002, 03:37 PM

I have a copy of the German Army Handbook and I am pretty sure it has the reorganization addressed in there. I will look.

AndyW · #3 (**permalink**) October 9th, 2002, 06:47 PM

The s.c. "New Infantry Division" was ordered officially on Oct. 5, 1943.

That was a reaction that many german Infantry Divisions just had 2 Rgt. by this time or three Rgts. with only 2 Battallions.

Cheers,

Friedrich · #4 (**permalink**) October 10th, 2002, 10:03 PM

I think that most of the German divisions of many kinds had two or three regiments of two batallions each. Even a Panzerdivision had Panzerregiments of two Panzerbatallions. By example, I will mantion how the Panzervisionen XV and XXI from the DAK were composed of:

A Panzerregiment (2 batallions of 84 armoured vehicles each)
An Artillerieregiment (3 groups of 3 batteries each, including a heavy 150mm one)
An Infanterieregiment (motorised of 3 batallions, 4 companies each)
Beside there were a Recoinassence batallion (30 light-armoured vehicles), a FLAK batallion (88s) and support troops, totallizing nearly 12.000 men.

The Infanteriedivisionen were simpler (3 regiments of 2 batallions of 4 companies each). Hope this helps.

Heartland · #5 (**permalink**) October 11th, 2002, 05:50 AM

Thanks to all who have replied!

The reason I'm asking is I'm ever so slowly tinkering with a Kursk scenario for the wargame "The Operational Art of War". I have the Orders of Battle pinned down for both sides, as well as the Organization and Equipment for the units. The problem remaining is, which German divisions to do with the 3 battalions/regiment structure, and which to do with the 2 battalions/regiment version.

I'm intrigued by AndyW's comment. So the reorganization was ordered much later, it was just a matter of fact, due to losses, up until October 5? That doesn't make my job easier unfortunately, but it's very useful to know! [img]smile.gif[/img]

AndyW · #6 (**permalink**) October 11th, 2002, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heartland:

I'm intrigued by AndyW's comment. So the reorganization was ordered much later, it was just a matter of fact, due to losses, up until October 5? That doesn't make my job easier unfortunately, but it's very useful to know! [img]smile.gif[/img]

As it's for a serious effort of creating a TAOW-scenario and not a "jist-wanna-know"-question I feel obligated to specify this a little bit:

Infantry Divisions:
The "normal" German ID had 3 Rgts with 3 (not 2) Battallions (3 Inf.-Companies and 1 MG-Comp. per Battl.) plus a 13th (infantry-gun) and 14th (Anti-Tank) Company. Plus 1 Arty-Rgt.

German mobilisation of Divisions occured in "waves". The number of the "wave" in which a certain ID was mobilzed gives you an idea about the personell (active, reservists 1st or 2nd grade, etc.) and material (czech or french equiment etc.) used to built it.

The first "two-tracked" Divisions with only 2 Rgts (with 3 Battl with 5 Companies each) were built with the 12th Wave in Dec. 1940 (97th, 99th, 100st, 101st Light Infantry Division)

Same with the 199th ID od the 7th wave and the 416th ID (maybe only 4 Companies here)

In May 1941, the 15th wave with 15 ID's for occupation purposes had only 2 Rgts with 3 Battl with 4 Companies each. No 13th or 14th Company here.
(702, 704, 707, 708, 709, 710, 711, 712, 713, 714, 715, 716, 717, 718, 719 ID)

Now, until spring 1942 things messed up especially at Army Group Center; some Divisions had to break up thier 3rd Rgt (81, 255, 216, 183, 292 ID) some thier 3rd Battallion to fill up somehow the remaining Battls in their 3 Rgts.

20th Wave June 42: Two Rgts per Division (38,19,65th ID)

September 1942. 5 "localized" IDs with two Rgts with 3 Battalions each (343,344,346,347,348 ID)

The two croatian IDs (369,373) had only 2 Rgts, too.

Due to hard fightings in Winter 1942/43, almost all IDs of Army Gruop Center had to break off her 3rd Rgt: (45,69,268,260,269,131,206,246,252,83,258,252,98 ID). With order of April 28, 1943 the 3rd Rgt of the IDs 263,331,87,206,205,330,291 ID were broke off, too. Each of the two remaining Rgts had 3 Battl plus 1 additional. Battalion per ID.

Januar 1943: Due to losses the 62nd ID breaks off her 3rd Rgt.

This mix-up of Divisions with 3 Rgts of 3 Battl each, 3 Rgt of 2 Battalions each, 2 Rgts of 3 Battals each etc. was canceled with order of Oct. 1, 1943 to built up a "new Division" or commonly the "ID 44", with exception of to the Divisions in Finland and Norway, the territrorial IDs, the 45th and 22nd.

One ID 44 had 3 Rgts with 2 Battalion with 4 Companies plus 13th (Arty) and 14th (Anti-Tank) Company plus 1 Arty-Rgt.

This entire process took a while, if not already in place by fact.

Mountain Divisions, light Divisions(Jaeger-Div), Luftwaffen-Fiel-Divisions, Security Division etc seem to have 2 Rgts only IN GERENRAL. The Arty Rgts had 2 or 3 Abteilungen, depends on.

Some other buffs might help ypu with SS and Panzer.

Nobody said it's easy. Hope this helps.

(source: Georg Tessin: "Deutsche Verbände und Truppen 1939-1945")

Cheers,

Heartland · #7 (**permalink**) October 14th, 2002, 07:55 AM

That's just a great post Andy, thank you very much! Exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for.

I already have the TO&E for the SS, Panzer and independent formations, as well as most of the Soviet stuff, so now a lot of hard work to implement the correct details into my current protoype remains...plus further event scripting and refining the map...