I read a little about him the other day and gained enormous respect for him.
Now, he was killed on a raid, but was he hit by ground fire, did he crash?????
And please list all his medals and honours-Cheers...

7
V

That symbol is meant to resemble a 'Death To Hitler' motif

[ 08. November 2002, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Panzerknacker ]

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"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

Guy Gibson : -

DFC - 8 July 1940 (Flying Officer)
Bar to DFC - 10 September 1941 (Acting Sq Ldr)
DSO - 17 November 1942 (Acting Wing Commander)
Bar to DSO - 30 March 1943 (Acting Wing Commander)
VC - 28 May 1943 (Acting Wing Commander)

Gibson was killed on 19th September 1944 flying a 627 Squadron Mosquito as 'Master Bomber' on a raid to Rheydt.
The Mosquito crashed near Steenbergen in Holland and was totally burned out. Controversy has continued ever since as to the reason; flak was the 'story' at the time, but 'old hands' on both 617 and 627 agree that Gibson's lack of experience on the Mosquito was a probable factor.

For any one interested in Gibson, I very highly recommend Richard Morris' biography, 'Guy Gibson', published by Viking, London in 1994. I rate this as one of the best biographies of anyone that I've ever read.

'After The Battle' published an exact facsimile of Gibson's personal logbook in the late '70s. Regrettably, the print run was very limited and copies are now advertised on the internet for over 100 pounds.

[ 09. November 2002, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Just found a good online review of Richard Morris' book which sums it up very well : -

http://www.elsham.pwp.blueyonder.co..../raf_book.html

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Martin, and what about Gibson's 'own' book?

I only have (and read) the Dutch version. I have a badly battered 1st edition here...With a nice introduction by Bomber harris...

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

(banner by Otto)
www.basher82.nl

'Enemy Coast Ahead' by Guy Gibson is one of the 'great' Bomber Command books, and gives superb 'atmosphere' being a contemporary account.

BUT one must remember that it was fundamentally 'propaganda' ( I don't mean that in a sinister way - it was published when Britain needed 'heroes' ), and in fact Gibson's own words were in many cases 'ghost-written' and heavily censored by the publishers.

Again, Morris has done in-depth research here and his analysis is fascinating - it's a real shame that the 'original' of Gibson's work couldn't be published.

Also famous is Paul Brickhill's 'The Dam Busters' but this contains many inaccuracies which have been copied by many, many writers - most recently by Robin Neillands in 'The Bomber War'.

Again, the absolute best book about the raid is Dr John Sweetman's 'Operation Chastise', recently reprinted as 'The Dams Raid'.

If you are interested in the Raid and have Sweetman's and Morris' books - then you have the best !

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Great Stuff Martin-thanks for all the input...

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"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

I think Guy Gibson's account of a mission is in one of my books-i just might go have a gander at it...

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"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

A copy of ATB's Gibson logbook facsimile was sold on ebay yesterday, reaching 122.50 US dollars.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I hate it that ebay.com has decided that many of us in Europe cannot bid on interesting items relating WW2, 'due to current laws' or something to that effect. That was because France complained! Not us!

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

(banner by Otto)
www.basher82.nl

I must say that some very interesting items 'turn up' on ebay uk but the prices achieved can be absolutely horrifying ! ( Unless you're the seller, that is... )

Overall, it's usually better to visit aerojumbles and militaria fairs....

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

SHUT UP!! SH-UT-UP!!!!!

OTTO! He is pestering me!!Where is that whistle!?



I will try to come over next year and visit some of your peoples famous carbootsales . God, went to a few when I lived in Sheffield..

Recently some item of crewmember of the 93rd BG was auctioned on ebay. I followed its 'progress' through their e-mailring. It went for just over $50...

Guess I am stuck with ebay.DE...

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

(banner by Otto)
www.basher82.nl

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Hey, gents... sory if this strays a wee bit off topic...
Martin-
Could you elaborate on this a bit? I used Neillands recently a bit in that 8th Air Force project, and he seemed pretty good. We didn't use him (her?) enough to get in trouble for inaccuracies- after all, our book was aimed at high school. But I'm curious as to what kind of inaccuracies he has, and how prevalent they are.

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Hi Crazy -

Firstly, I'm not having a 'go' at Neillands book in general. As you've probably guessed, the Dams Raid is one of my 'specialized subjects'.

So when I was reading Neillands, it was a bit jarring to read 'The twenty-one crews ( of 617 Squadron ) that assembled..were the cream of 5 Group...All had done at least one tour, and some had done two....' A 'myth', quite a number were surprisingly 'green' and some had yet to complete ten missions. And then 'A crudely constructed Y-shaped sight..solved the distance problem', actually not quite. The famous 'Y-sight' proved so cumbersome to use that the majority of bomb aimers used alignment lines chalked directly onto the nose perspex. And 'Townsend, diverted to the Ennerpe ( sic : Ennepe ) Dam, hit it accurately...' Its doubtful that he did - AJ-O is thought to have bombed the Bever Dam in error.

So I looked at the bibliography and was rather surprised to find only Brickhill's Dams book cited. Now Brickhill's work is a 'classic' but much information was not available when it was written in the '50s, also Brickhill was first and foremost a journalist who wanted to write a 'cracking yarn' - and it was, becoming a huge bestseller. But Sweetman's book is now widely considered as definitive, having taken years to write and research. And it's widely available, being still in print today. As Neillands complains in his introduction about 'facts..becoming distorted by time' and the proofs being read by 'experts in their field' I really found it weird that these Dams errors of fact were not pointed out, especially as the chapter in question is headed 'The Great Raids : The Dams to Ploesti...'

As I said, this is me being pedantic but it left a feeling that Neillands maybe hadn't researched that deeply, maybe wrote the book in a bit of a hurry....

Having said that, the book overall read well, the veteran's accounts are very interesting, the discussion of 'morals' of strategic bombing at the end was well-thought-out - I was just left a little uneasy at the 'historical accuracy'.

As an aside, Neillands does a valuable job in raising the US 'strategic bombing' of Japan - countless thousands incinerated, the A-Bomb as the greatest 'indiscriminate bombing' ever, and yet the USAAF comes out smelling of roses while Harris and his boys......

[ 22. November 2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Interesting... thanks for the info, Martin.

Hmmm... maybe such a "go" is required?? This seems rather suspect. True, the dam raids are a specific subject. But, like you say, Neillands seems to make a point of trying to get the most accurate info. So it certainly does raise eyebrows to come across a section with that many errors. You mention the exact problem in this case- the "hurried writing" idea. If we find one section in Neillands that has many errors, that necessarily calls the rest of his book into question.

This issue runs in a similar vein to my ages-old post on "The numbers game". It seems that often in WW2 historiography, ideas or theories are simply accepted over time without any research. Like the numbers game- certain "numbers" (like Tiger tank production) are simply accepted without any real question, despite disagreement among sources. Instead of taking the time and effort to dig for the real information, many historians simply accept a theory because it is the "popular" theory, or because it is the only theory they find.

Hmmmmm... I wonder if this peeves me so much because I'm an editor myself?

[ 22. November 2002, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Now here's something interesting...I've just read that Crecy Books in the UK will be publishing ( in May ) the original manuscript of 'Enemy Coast Ahead'.

The only previously editions were heavily censored and edited. Some excerpts were quoted in Morris' biography - the 'unexpurgated' version will for sure be naive in places and outspoken, but will be a fascinating insight into Gibson's personality.

I can't wait to read it !

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Hmm…..shame you’ll have to wait a year or so to buy it Martin, seeing as you only buy remainders!

No.9

ps. Robin Neillands is a pratt, the best things in his books are the large chunks of interview text they usually include. Neillands as an accurate intelligent researcher???? More chance of getting sh/t from a rocking-horse! – Suppose I’d better add IMHO as someone’s bound to think the sun shines out his exhaust

I may indeed make a very rare exception for this one and pay full price ! ( )

I've never rated Neillands except for the interviews ; he's not as bad as (say) Charles Whiting but he's a long, long way behind Martin Middlebrook....

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

You devil! That's about 4 days Congestion Charge.


Re Neillands, he’s an ex Marine, (this is significant). Army Commandos and Royal Marine Commandos, W.W.II, have a few underlying niggles. There are a number of reasons, some intricate, which to SOME of either side can be quite profound while to others of no consequence. Unless you know an individual well, it’s always best to avoid the subject and don’t get involved if the topic comes up.

Neillands wrote By Sea and Land, a history of the Royal Marine Commandos 1942-1982. In researching it he encountered many Army Commandos and decided, after finishing the Marine book, he had enough material to cobble together a ‘history’ of the Army Commandos. It’s certainly no history as it concentrates on the Commandos he happened to have material on already. The interviews included are worth having but only if you use these to expand proper accounts in other works. In places he takes War Diary scripts and infers they are interviews. As he clearly doesn’t know how they contribute to explaining an action, the reader is left with a narrow impression that is supposed to be an overview.

Now, this second book is about the Army Commandos, but, Neillands cannot resist slipping in unnecessary pseudo ‘snide’ remarks re Navy over Army. The Army Commandos were the first Commandos formed in 1940 and formed in strength. The Marine Commandos did not start to be formed until 1942, most were formed later for the Normandy invasion. In 1940 the Marines were a fairly neglected organisation and many were manning coastal guns and some, to be quite frank, were being used as general dogsbodies. The Army Commandos were formed ONLY from volunteers among existing regiments, and only the cream was taken. Neillands finds it necessary to slip into his Army book, a statement as to why the Commandos were not formed from the Marines. According to him the reason is; “Because they weren’t asked.” !!!! Well gee f’kin whiz Robin, they never asked the Pay Corp either or the Somalian Camel Corp come to that !!!!!!!!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

No.9

[ 06. March 2003, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: No.9 ]

Guy would have definitely wanted to know this:

From Albert Zoller " Hitler´s private secretary´s memoirs " ( = Christa Schroeder )

"I recall the moment, when the info on the destruction of the Möhne and Edertal dams arrived. As the details were read Hitler´s face was like cut from stone. Only after some days he became utterly mad about the incident and shouted at everybody in rage."

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"Our beloved Führer? Never!"

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