Gents, pull out those books on the Mossie units please !

I need to find out about the loss of a Mossie NF 30, MM 709 of the 219th squadron shot down by a German pilot in a Ju 88G-6 of II./NJG 2 on the night of December 26/27 1944. The Mossie crashed at Holsbeck.

Name of RAF crew and code of the Mossie if possible would be appreciated !, and any info on this engagement if mentioned in the books or a web-site.

many thanks

E

I found one reference. Not on the net but in EN NOOIT WAS HET STIL, DEEL II (and it was never quiet, part two - A cronical about an air war. Dutch publication by trhe Dutch Air Force, ):

26/27 December 1944 - 10 mosquitos flew defensive patrols above northern combat area. Two Ju88's were shot down over Holland... ...De mosquito's lost were one of 219 Sqn, piloted by Wing Commander Green and the second one from 488 New Zealand Sqn, flwon by F/L Webbe. This last one crashed in own territory.

This is all I could find....At least gives you a name...

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Alrighty, Erich!

This book gives some more details about at least one of your other crashes...small details but interesting tidbits, I guess...

Also has a pic of F/L Mercer!!!! And more info!

Will write an e-mail later tonite, have to go to a party now!

[ 13. January 2003, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]

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Great info Stevin !

will be looking forward to your mail tonight. Now not too many Heineken's ok ? !

I have a total of 5 Ju 88G-6's of II./NJG 2 shot down during night ground attacks. The info though real brief says due to flak fire. Could be Mossies though.....and also no wherabouts of the crashes.......good grief ! the crews are missing/dead.....how do they know if they don't know where the crashes took place ? geez !

E

Hmmmmmm, but check this: From the Commenwealth War Graves site:

WILFRITH PETER GREEN DSO, DFC

Wing Commander
39518
Pilot
219 Sqdn., Royal Air Force

who died on
Thursday 1 March 1945 . Age 30

Buried at ST. SEVER CEMETERY EXTENSION, ROUENSeine-Maritime, France

That doesn't add up!

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one more tidbit about German nf losses lists....
here is one that list only on the west front and the 4 man crew missing. 26/27 December 1944 date.

Lt. Hans Oppl and crew in Ju 88G-6 4R+NU werk nummer 620448, 10./NJG 2 / strafing a US motor column, flys too low on the ground attack run and smashes into Conifers killing the crew and disintegrating the Junkers near Grandrieu Belgium. Not a shot fired in anger from the Americans, and lives spent almost needlessly....

Stevin, does the memorial say how he died in march of 45 ? you are correct, this is very weird unless they crashed but both bailed out in time and via undergound services reached the shores of England..... ?

E

No, The site doesn't say.

It also depends were Holsbeck is located. I can't find a Holsbeck, though.

There is a HOLBECK, which lies South of Berlin, NorthWest of Cottbus. Not much change of evading from there, I guess.

There is a HILBECK, which lies considerably closer to the Allied lines, West of Hagen, near Gelsenkirchen. Not far from Allied Lines. As far as I know evaded RAF men were sent on operational missions, as opposed to US personel, which weren't.

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My Book mentions that 25 Ju88's attacked roads in the southeast of Belgium. These were NOT bombers, but nightfighters used as jabo's. They didn't have the "search-radar" on board, but did have electrical bombracks. 17 Ju's didn't return, from NJG 1, 2, 3 and 4. One Ju of 7./NJG2 crashed near St. Oedenrode. Also a Bf110 of 9./NJG1 probably crashed in Holland. The others either in Belgium or Germany or France.

This book is only about targets attacked and planes crashed i Holland, so a lot of info isn't covered in this book.

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Stevin :

Hilbeck maybe the spot. The area around Berlin would have been too far away for fighters of NJG 2 anyway. II./NJG 2 at this time frame was based out of Vechta and Eelde which is just where ? Also maybe at Hollenbek which is due east of Hamburg some 30 miles.....

E

Interesting Stevin ! 25 Ju's attacking, and yes as night ground attack except that they did have radar for picking up mossie intruders especially. I have losses of 14 German night fighters......gag, what a terrible ration. 13 of them Ju 88G's and 1 Bf 110G-4 of 11./NJG 6 as you mentioned. In all the Ju 88G's each had a four man crew listed. 10 Ju 88G crews are listed with a/c missing.

E

Vechta is Germany, north of Osnabruck, if I am not mistaken. Eelde is in The netherlands, more to the north, South of Groningen.

I use www.multimap.com. It has town on it that I don't find anywhere else. www.map24.nl is also a nifty little site.

Hollenbek might be too far, but you never know, though....

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Does it give the codes of the 7./NJG 2 Ju 88G 1-6 crash at St. Oedenrhode ? I have three lost, 2 G-6 and one G-1 from 7th staffel.......

no...also not if it was a G1 or G6...Will have to dig deeper for this one. One Unidentified a/c was excavated near St. Oedenrode in 1968, but they state the date of crash as September 1944. I am sure this was not the only a/s to go down in the area though. Might still be there....Might also be an Allied a/c...

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Stevin I have found that the losses lists and the claims listing for German night fighter crews has big gaps even though printed through BA/MA archiv's in Freiburg. Even with a missing letter or an addition it can really keep you going on research to determine just where something took place. If it isn't too much bother can you e-mail me the pages covering the night events on 26/27 December 44 if it isn't too much bother ?...translated of course. Most likely all of December 44 details will e in the monster Bodenplatte book; but when will it reach us is the big question.

E

26/27 dec.1944 will be in the mail shortly. It has quite extensive coverage (for this book anyway) on Bodenplatte. Couple of pages. Will take a while to get that translated, but I think will be worthwhile. Also hope to get the 1945 dates to you asap!

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A big thank you in advance !

Stevin I noticed your post a couple of spots earlier mentioning nf's lost of 2,3,4 and 1. I have these losses reported on 25/26 Decmber 44, a total of 13, with one Bf 110G-4 of 12./NJG 1 we are investigating now north of Gesecke, G9+EZ. Got to get off this computer for an hour as it needs a re-adjustment fit.....

tootles for now.

E

No props, you're welcome!

But where is Martin when you need him!? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

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Ok,

W/Cdr Green's navigator might have been A.R. Grimston or Douglas (Dougie) Oxby. Apparently he has flown with both of them. Before he went to 219, he flew with 85,410 and 96 sqns. He is credited with 14 kills and 13 V-1s.

Source: http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACE.../mosquito.html

But also:

Wartime Rank: Wing Commander
Service: Royal Air Force
Squadron: 85, 96, 219
Victories: 9
Awards: DFC, DSO
Theaters: N/A
Remarks:
Nightfighter pilot:
- Obs: F/L Douglas A. Oxby, DSO, DFC, DFM & Bar.

Killed in flying accident, 1945.

Source: http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/BARC/wpgreen.html

And another site also says 14 vicotries....He was killed in what appears to be an ACCIDENT, not combat related. No info on Oxby on the CWGC site.

A R Grimston, however, died not long after Green:

ARTHUR REGINALD GRIMSTONE DFM

Pilot Officer
195380
Nav.
85 Sqdn., Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve

who died on
Wednesday 14 March 1945

Buried at CHOLOY WAR CEMETERY Meurthe-et-Moselle, France.

Was he in the plane with Green and did he die after two weeks? Was this a different crash??

MARTIN!!!!!!

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Agreed ! calling Martin, come in Martin !

If Green was killed on the 1st by a nigh fighter it then could of been a Me 262A-1a of Kmdo Welter, or maybe flak or a lousy malfunction of the a/c ?

E

Well, different internet sources say this was a ACCIDENT.

But this is internet and they didn't name their sources, AFAICS...

MARTIN???

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Oh dear - I feel like someone arriving at a party just as everyone else is leaving !

Stevin's identified the only websites I can find ( & then some ! ). I have looked right through my entire Mosquito library and can find nothing to help...

This is not surprising. There's a 'gap in the market' here. There are loads and loads of books giving the minutest technical details of the aircraft - but as to men and missions, really pathetically little ! Likewise the archive of the Mosquito Museum - great for 'planes, not for men.

This is surprising - rather like the non-existent Lancaster website. I can find information about the fate of every Spitfire, Hurricane, Lancaster and Halifax from books - but not the Mosquito. And there is not much either about claims and successes.

So - I shall keept looking but I do feel rather empty-headed about this question that I would dearly love to answer !!

( PS : Erich - the site is rather slow, I know - but maybe it's worth posting a request on the Mosquito Forum site ? )

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