Finally found a website that has a reasonably comprehensive Lancaster history and a very good 'surviving aircraft' section : -

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca

Just scroll down to 'The Lancaster Bomber'.

( Enthusiastic people, those Canadians ! )

[ 19. January 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Gotta love the persistence of those Canadians-and thank the Lord they put that into something as useful as this!!!

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"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

Great site Martin !

A questin for the RAF experten.......I noticed the info on # 8 group/Pathfinders. Was this the only group designated to fly Pathfinder missions or did each Bomber group have it's own pathfinder force ?

E

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AFAIK ( without looking it all up in my books ) : -

8 Group were the 'true' ( 'Bennett' ) Pathfinders ( the only ones allowed to wear the coveted Pathfinder badge ).

But certainly 5 Group increasingly flew their own 'pathfinder' missions using specialized techniques, and of course 617 Squadron as part of 5 Group certainly used different types of marking.

Eventually, in April 1944, 5 Group's Cochrane persuaded Harris to transfer three of Bennett's squadrons from 8 to 5 for pathfinding duties. These were Nos 83 & 97 ( Lancasters ) and 627 ( Mosquitoes ).

There had always been great jealousy between the two Group commanders and this transfer led to much bitterness which persists among survivors and partisan authors.

As to the other Groups such as 1, 3, 4 and 6 I don't believe that they took part in pathfinding but will look it up anyway....

[ 18. January 2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

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Great link Martin--thanks! Now I can finally learn something that aint German.

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Martin, I am still a little confused I guess.....let's take an example of using something like February 23, 1945 over Pforzheim. Would 8th group and another group possibly lead the rest of the RAF bomber formation ? and these pathfinders would be positioned how... ? above and forward or below and forward of the main stream ?...... approximately how high or low in feet if known... ?

Noticed a little segement via a vet on the web-site mentioning the shooting down of a 262 near Pforzheim which is in the Bayern. This is incorrect as the Me 262's of 10./NJG 11 were based at Burg and were repsonsible for defending the Berlin proper from Mosquito bombers and the lesser threat to them, the Mossie intruder. In reality the only NJG unit to face RAF bombers in the southern portion of Germany this night was NJG 6 which claimed 13 RAF a/c.

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Lucky you asked about Pforzheim, Erich - this is actually one I know something about as that was the night that 'Ted' Swales of 582 Squadron ( Lancasters ) earned his posthumous VC.

1 and 6 Groups provided the Main Force ; with all marking responsibilities being handled by 8 Group PFF.

Pforzheim was marked by 13 8 Group Mosquitoes using the 'Musical Parramatta' marking technique. Guided to the target by the ground-controlled Oboe system the Mosquitoes dropped their Target Indicators 'blind' from high altitude ( cannot find the exact altitude ; it would have been high to allow for the earth's curvature ).

8 Group 'Backing Up' Lancasters and Halifaxes then continued to drop Target Indicators on the Mosquito TIs throughout the raid itself from 8,000ft ; as instructed by the Master Bomber ( in this case, Swales ) using VHF radio.

The Main Force on this particular raid used an unusual approach ; flying below 5,000ft until reaching 07deg00E, then climbing on track to 8,000ft over Pforzheim. It was hoped to fool the nightfighters but was unsuccessful in this aim : 12 bombers were lost out of 367 attacking.

The Main Force simply had to unload their bombs on 8 Group's TIs as instructed by the Master Bomber. This was a devastating example of Bomber Command 'getting it right' - the results were appalling with 83 percent of Pforzheim's buildings being destroyed and an estimated 17,600 people losing their lives. In it's way this was worse than Dresden as Pforzheim was much smaller.

Swales' aircraft was 'caught' by a nightfighter but he remained at the controls thus enabling his crew to escape ; the VC being awarded for 'sacrificing his life so that his comrades could live'.

The 'semi-official' history of 8 Group, 'Pathfinder Force' by Gordon Musgrove ( MacDonald & Janes, 1976 ) is essential reading for information about PFF, including as it does several highly technical appendices.

Hope this helps !

[ 19. January 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

From: Beam Bombers - The Secret War of 109 Sqn by Michael Cummings, pg between 118-119

[ 19. January 2003, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]

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Excellent scan, Stevin...

Indeed, those are some of the 'backing-up' TIs going down over Pforzheim.

As an aside to this, Little Staughton remains today as one of the ( accidentally ) best-preserved of all wartime Bomber Command stations.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

You guys are killin me ! more books to find for my research and none of this e-bay searchs and paying 200.00 US for each.....ha !

God materisl Martin and great timed shot Stevin. You just don't see much during the night war activities in the way of flying machines. Just big explosions usually.

Back to the basic question again although Martin your text was great. If 8th group lancs were supporting a Hali/Lanc raid and no Mossies involved, and I know this is presumptous, would the PPF be above and ahead or behind or were they all together or split up over/ under the long bomber stream ? I can understand Mossies pre-marking the targets, and maybe it is just that I am trying to picture all of this in my puny brain as a visual/profile. Wish I had a scanner as a profile exists in one of my books on raids over Berlin, and although quite small has some interesting drawin(s) of pathfinders ahead, in the middle and behind the Lanc stream.....if this is indeed correct.... ?
I am going to make a copy of your text Martin and send it off to Peter Spoden of ex-NJG 6 for his thoughts since he knows about the Pforzheim experience with great bitterness. So I will be quite careful how I introduce the written material.

E thumbs up guys and keep it comin !

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I guess this is one of the books to have when you want to know about the technical development of the Mossie as a pathfinder. It is a great book. (and...no ebay here! DISCOUNT bookstore! YIHAAAH!)

Great pic as well. Was amazed to see such a pic and then with two planes in it. Anybody an idea what that second plane is? The one most obvious is a Lanc, but the one above it?

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

I will try to 'get my head round' your PFF question, Erich !

Yes indeed, please be careful with Pforzheim. Although I don't want to go O/T and into the 'ethics of bombing' here this one has exercised my mind ....

Photos of Edwin Swales show a very good-natured-looking young man with a wide, friendly smile and by all accounts he really was a 'nice guy' as well as a courageous individual. And yet it was partly his skills and dedication to duty which visited such an unimaginable holocaust on this town which had previously been untouched by war.

I don't know. I guess our generation is fortunate not to have been placed in such a position.

Please give my kindest regards to Herr Spoden, by the way...

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

thanks in advance Martin ! Yes I have had the non-pleasure of speaking to him and several others about the raids and the effects on the German populations......that is another forum I believe. Just interested in the techniques that is all.

Off to bake Apfel Küchen mit meine Frau

E back much later with Mercer's report....

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before I go......Stevin, is that a German night fighter.... ? man if that is.... ! whoa what a shot !


E

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Erich, you mean something like this?



From Bombers Over Berlin by Alan Cooper, pg 208

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

I don't know! It doesn't look like a Heavy...but it could be, but further away....

I am not very good at profiles...

And remember: This is just a still taken from a film!!!

[ 19. January 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

You're all going to think I'm biased here ( )...

But if it is twin-engined, the very broad tailplane surfaces make it look quite Mosquito-like ?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Well....I didn't want to bring it up myself...

Would be too much of a coincidence...or one might say I wanted to see a mossie...To me it looks single engine though.....

Nonethesless, something is flying there....can we agree it is a UFO?

[ 19. January 2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

Hmmm - if those 'blobs' on the wings are engines, they look a little too far outboard for a Mossie...

Ooo errr - spooky !

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

If you guys don't mind when I write Peter this next week I will make a copy for a scan to him. It appears to me by the pointed wings it maybe a Ju 88G-6 but then again. It's no Bf 110G-4 that is certain. A Mossie.....maybe but as martin pointed out the engines would be much closer together. A problem here is that the a/c appears to be banking away from......it's intended victim ?

Stevin, yes that plan looks like the one for the bomber stream....

E

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On closer examination....indeed, the two blobs on thewings have been noticed...Ju88?

Erich, I will try and make some better scans today when I am home...these were rush jobs, as it were....

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

Sent the scan to Peter last night...no word yet. The scan was rather small unfortunately so he may not respond, but then again......

19.51-20.39 hrs. 3 Ju 88 and 1 Bf 110G-4 of I./NJG 6 from Großsachsenheim.
19.53-21.00 hrs. 3 Ju 88 of II./NJG 6 from Schwäbisch Hall.

20.00 hrs 1 Lancaster by Hptm Friedrich flying Ju 88G-6 east of Pforzheim at 2500 metres.
20.05 1 Lancaster 2600 m around Pforzheim Ju 88 G-6 2Z+XL, Oblt Engel.
20.08 1 lancaster 2500m east of Pforzheim by Hptm Friedrich of I./NJG 6.
20.09 1 Lancaster 2500m east of Pforzheim, 1 Bf 110G-4 2Z+IH of 1./NJG 6.
20.11 1 Lancaster 2000 m 30km southwest of Pforzheim Ju 88G-6 Oblt. Peter Spoden 6./NJG 6.
20.12 1 Lancaster 2000m southeast of Pforzheim by Hptm Friedrich of I./NJG 6.
20.14 1 Lancaster 2000m 30km southwest of Pforzheim Ju 88G-6 Oblt. Peter Spoden.
20.15 1 Lancaster 2900m west of Tübingen, Ju 88G-6 of OFhnr Helmut Bünje, 4./NJG 6
20.15 1 Lancaster 2000m south of Pforzheim, Hptm. Friedrich, I./NJG 6
20.18 1 Lancaster 2500m near Pforzheim Ju 88G-6. Oblt Engel, 3./NJG 6.
20.20 1 Lancaster 2800m south of Tübingen, Ju 88G-6, OFhnr Helmut Bünje, 4./NJG 6.
20.22 1 Lancaster 1500m near Pfrorzheim Ju 88G-6 of Oberlt. Engel. 3./NJG 6
20.30 1 Lancaster 2400m southwest of Freundenstadt, Ju 88G-6, OFhnr Helmut Bünje, 4./NJG 6.

losses 1 Ju 88G-6, 2Z+XL, werk nummer 621807 of 3./NJG 6 pilot Wilhelm Engel and BF Uffz. Josef Fux wounded on landing and hit by a/c debris in combat with Lancsters, Ofw. Friedrich Meyer and BS Uffz. Brockhoff unhurt.

At 17.25 hrs airbase Schwäbisch Hall under ground attack by P-51's...during the day.

As you can see a puny force of 7 German night fighters going up a strong armada of RAF bomber a/c.......

Stevin, would like to see a clear scan if possible. Thanks !

E

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Finding a clear description of Pathfinder tactics is proving amazingly difficult - and I've been going through all my books.

Stevin's scan from Alan Cooper's book is interesting for one raid : it's important to note that nearly every raid was different depending upon distance, location, meteorological situation, defences, etc etc.

I've so far only found one concise description of Pathfinder tactics : -

'...(Pathfinders) most frequently employed technique. First, an advance party, known as 'illuminators', found the target and lit it up with lanes of white flares. Then a second group, the 'visual markers', identified the actual target and marked it by dropping coloured markers. This group was quickly followed by a third, the 'backers-up', which dropped incendiaries on the coloured markers. After all these came the main force....'
Denis Richards, 'The Hardest Victory' , p.150.

With much respect to Mr Richards, this sounds a little simplified - but Pathfinder technique was continually changed and became much more sophisticated as the war went on, with 'recenterers' being added later, plus Master Bombers, Mosquitoes, 'Parramatta', 'Newhaven', 'Wanganui',etc etc.

The entire 'Bomber Stream' concept was extremely complex - the idea being to concentrate the entire force over the target area in the shortest possible time, thus 'overwhelming the defences'. The staff work involved in Bomber Command planning of each raid must have been an enormous task but I have yet to read a good description of this aspect.

So - I'm still reading on for things such as altitudes ( nothing discovered as yet ) and please feel free to correct me....

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Sounds good to me so far Martin. I cannot comment on things I know nothing about....though as you said the raids varied with altitude and defences. I can imagine the idea of flying low and then trying to get up to some sort of altitude over Pforzheim must have taxed the RAF crews greatly. As I have shown the German claims are low range and not the usual 20,000 feet perimeters that was usually flown on missions. Certainly the Lancs and the Ju's did not perform at their ideal.

E

E

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Martin :

In your vast library on RAF bombers and missions do you have anything covering the 14/15.2.45 missions, especially around Chemnitz ? Looking for the RAF pathfinder plot and effectiveness achieved, losses, etc. I have the Middlebrook and Chorley volumes but am looking for something a little more specified and detailed.....there were 15 claims made by German nf, not all over the Chemnitz target areas, but in the north sea by NJG 3 as well.

E

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