Spent some fascinating hours at the PRO today following the operational history of this aircraft through 97 Squadron's Operational Record Books.

Very interesting, especially to discover that JB659 flew on thirteen , not nine operations.

The 'nine' figure comes from Francis K Mason's book which only gives a 'selection' of raids for each airframe. So in fact, J-For-Johnnie flew to Berlin ( 8 times, including one aborted and the final op ), Leipzig, Frankfurt, Stettin, Brunswick and Magdeburg. It was also due to fly another Berlin op on the night before it was lost, but failed to take off.

The crew who were lost with the Lancaster were flying in it for the first time ; most of them had only joined 97 Squadron on January 14th.

So this machine was quite a veteran despite having an operational life of almost exactly two months.

31/1/44 : -
'Two crews, F/LT. CLARKE and P/O HART failed to return. No news has since been heard'
( Signed : Sqn. Ldr. C.M. Dunnicliffe, Officer Commanding ).

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Interesting Martin ! did you have to pay a charge to view these docs ?

E

Drifting off topic here, but I have to say that the PRO is very impressive indeed.

Firstly, it's all free [img]smile.gif[/img] ( except for copying documents, at 25 pence each ). As this was my 'first time' I was given an induction course and issued with a Readers Card ( valid for 3 years ).

Luckily I'd checked out their online catalogue for the 97 Sqn ORBs which saved time, and due to their popularity these are on microfilm. Its unbelievably tiring and time-consuming to go through these ( there's almost too much info ! ) and I was only looking at two months !

I wanted to go on to see the Station ORB for Bourn airfield ( the original book ) and maybe other things but simply ran out of time.

But I must say it was really exciting to spot 'my' aircraft and follow each operation, with different crews and operation narratives, times, details of bomb loads, etc. It was like entering another world and I can see how people can become 'lost' in research....

Anyhow I shall put together a little 'operational history of JB-659' ( a humble effort I know, but give me a break... ) a copy of which will go up to the Wickenby Museum ( it'll at least show them that somebody cares ! ).

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Good for you Martin !

that is quite a noble undertaking and I am sure it will pay off for you in the time ahead, and as for the museum, they will surely appreciate everything you are doing with your efforts.

As for PRO, I have heard horror stories about time delays and simply just being able not to find anything. Do find it strange as the web-site for the firm seems like it is in good order.

Any expectations of a return visit, say in the next three months ? Still looking for the captured docs file #

E

Yep, as Arnie said - 'I'll be back !'

I think your horror-tales are from the 'old' PRO.

It is now housed in an ultra-modern facility, and along with many other British institutions ( eg museums, etc ) has to present a 'user-friendly' face to the general public to qualify for funding.

The staff were all extremely helpful, the place wasn't too crowded - but I guess it helps to know as far as possible exactly what you're looking for. Documents take half-an-hour to deliver ( 50 minutes on Saturdays ), but as I said, time ran out on me before I could try that service.

Just for a little while today I could kid myself that I was a real historian ! Don't worry, I won't give up the day job.... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Whew ! well this seems to be some relief if I ever get the chance to come over. you have done well and researching well in advance pays off.
Have done this through internet services provided by the BA/MA in Freiburg, Germany with excellent results. each page runs approx .34c US to copy, but having the info such as title and document RL number(s) is a definate plus although ordering on-line or through letter which is un-wise is just plain time consuming. Hiring one to do the foot work is the way to go unless you are blessed with a bit of cash to make the trip and then stay a week in a cheap hotel.

Martin let me know in advance when your next trip would be please as I have two items of multi-pages I would like to acquire. but would first like to know the amount for page copying so funds are in your hands in advance of payment.....

E

From the ORB of 97 (PFF) Squadron, Bourn : -

30th - 31st January 1944

BERLIN

JB-659 OF-J

P/O A R Hart
Sgt L Clifton
Sgt H J Boal
Sgt G I Williams
Sgt W J Jones
Sgt D F Hicks
Sgt C M Price

t/o 17:10

5 x 2000lb MC

MISSING

-------

The 'Bomber War' is so vast that it has been interesting for me to focus on one very typical aircraft, its crews and operations, researching as much as I can find.

But on this very cold day here, I'm thinking that 60 years ago today this aircraft and its crew 'failed to return'.

I shall raise a glass at ten past five.

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Martin, do you have Alan Cooper's Bombers Over Berlin? Several crashes I research(ed) were/are about a/c downed during the (air)Battle of Berlin.

The 30/31 Jan 1945 raid is described in some detail, though nothing on this Sqn or this crew. This crew is listed as MIA in the book, though.

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Stevin - yes, I've been gradually collecting all the books I can find about the 'Bomber Battle of Berlin' ; Cooper, Middlebrook, Searby, Jennie Gray, etc etc.

As we discovered with Erich's input, JB-659 almost certainly fell to the Schrage Musik cannon of Heinz Vinke's Me110 from Leeuwarden.

Peter Spoden also flew during this campaign which is one reason it has been such a privilege to correspond with him.....

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Hi Erich,

Sorry to butt in on this one !!

Did you manage to find anything on who might have shot down my Uncle's Stirling from 7 Sqn (Pathfinders) ?

Paul

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Nikto ne Zabyt . Nichto ne Zabyto.

Let no one forget . Let nothing be forgotten.

A brief recap for newer members ( and me ! ).

Paul's Uncle ( who has no known grave ) was a Pathfinder crewmember of Stirling III EF932 'MG-N', presumed lost off the Dutch coast on the night of 24/25 June, 1943, target Wuppertal.

No answer to your question, but interesting anyway, is the following quote from Gordon Musgrove's 'Pathfinder Force ' ( 1976 ) :

'The marking and backing-up ( at Wuppertal, June 24-25 ) were of a high order...From the beginning of the year, 7 and 35 Squadrons had done all the H2S marking and illuminating. The courage of the crews was outstanding. In outdated aircraft, they faced the defences of the largest cities where there were four or five times as many flak batteries as planes in the target area. They pressed on in the face of heavy losses....for example, 7 Squadron lost its three flight commanders during one week in June.' ( p.52/53 ).

[ 01. February 2004, 06:22 AM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

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Thanks Martin,more great info,

Paul [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Nikto ne Zabyt . Nichto ne Zabyto.

Let no one forget . Let nothing be forgotten.

Research, they say, never ends.

The reason for my question about Nachtjagd Grid References was to try to resolve the original mystery of - Who Shot J-Johnnie Down ?

Chorley lists JB-659 as being lost at around 22:10 on 30/1/44. Hinchliffe's biography of Schnaufer lists his only victory that night as being an 'unidentified Lancaster' at 22:15 in Grid GK5, the aircraft 'crashing into the sea'.

The wreckage of JB-659 fell to earth at Haarlemerleide, exactly halfway between Heemskerk and Heemstede, Casticum and Lisse, which thanks to Erich and Stevin Oudshoorn we know to be the upper and lower limits of GK. GK did not extend to to the North Sea coast. JB-659 broke in two just below the cockpit, and so came straight down.

It seems unlikely that Heinz Vinke and Schnaufer would have been active in the same Grid Square at the same time. This being so, it really does begin to look as though this inexperienced Pathfinder crew were indeed the 44th victim of the most successful nightfighter ace ever, Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer.Also, at this time,he was based at Leeuwarden, Holland before transferring to St Trond, Belgium in March 1944.

( Unless anyone else has other theories.....? )

[ 08. March 2004, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Martin Bull ]

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Well, Hold on! Credit where credit is due. I only said that Erich's describtion could not be matched.

I checked my volumes on Fliegerhorst Leeuwarden, but no reference to 30 Jan. 1944. However, Johan Schuurman writes in his book about airfield Bergen that Heinz Vinke also claimed two Lancasters this night. One (lancaster JB535 from 97 Sqn) at 22.12 (!) near Kolhorn, which is North of Haarlemmerliede and would be grid ref. EK. And the second one....well, no information is known...

I'll write a research contact who has this particular (roughly) area as his expertise and has been doing research for over 30 years. Maybe he can come up with something!

Martin, Do you know anything about the crash itself? Maybe a strange question but do you know if it hit a farmhouse and unfortunately killed several members of the family living there?? That happened, afaik also in Haarlemerliede....Very vaguely I remember something about that being in the news a couple of years ago when they dug up the Lanc. It might have been another a/c though.

[ 08. March 2004, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]

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Stevin, yes - it is the same aircraft...

It would be really interesting to get to the bottom of the story !

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I was just checking the NFLA site and it is indeed. I should have some newspaper clippings about that.

Has nobody from NFLA ever tried to find out the German Nachjaeger? I'll try them and my contact.

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Thanks to Les Butler's website, 'GK5' can be seen exactly.

'GK' is just West of Amsterdam, with Amsterdam itself just below centre-right ( East ).

The number-system looks like this : -

1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9

The spot where JB-659 came down is almost midway between Amsterdam and the coast, and does certainly fall within the '5' square of 'GK'. Had the aircraft fallen into the sea as Hinchliffe records, then it would most likely have been reported as 'GK4'. So the crash-site of this aircraft corresponds with the reported 'kill' of Schnaufer.

It still seems highly unlikely that Vinke would have shot a Lancaster down at the same time and place....doesn't it ?

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Indeed, Vinke's kill was recorded about the same time, but more north, in what would be grid EK (Just south of Den Helder...) which is still roughly 50 km to J-Johnny's crash site. This was also a 97 sqn a/c.

I seems Schnauffer is your guy. Still strange about the statement that the plane crashed into the sea though...

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Schnaufer did not tend to 'hang around' to watch the result of his attacks. The Lancaster obviously suffered catastrophic damage ( the nose breaking off, and no survivors ) so it was reasonable for the Schnaufer crew to assume that the aircraft would have gone into the sea which is quite close to where the interception took place.Also it would not have been feasible for Peter Hinchliffe, when writing Schnaufer's biography, to minutely examine every the circumstances of every claim.

So - it really does at last look as though my little mystery is solved, and that the pile of wreckage lying in a hangar at Wickenby airfield represents one victory for the most successful nightfighter pilot of all time.

( But you know what it's like with research - I'm waiting for someone to contradict me.... )

__________________
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Oh, they will....just wait till Friedrich will come on-line later today!!

As to verifying claims so long after the event; Of course it will prove impossible to positively ID all claims and such. Sources do prove not always reliable. For example, 381BG lost 8 planes on January 11, 1944. These came down in a wide area. But the MACR's all state that the time they were last seen by any other in the formation was 11.22. For all 8! So, yes, research never ends... The records for 447BG are virtually non-exsistant. They lost three planes but all their operations officer could write down was the fact that three planes were MIA. And he added a list with claims of LW fighters. If this list is correct the 447th gunners were responsible for the downing of all LW fighters that day and then some....

As to Schnaufer's claim; I wonder what you would need/what would constitute sufficient evidence, but I am positive that you are closer to ID-ing this claim than whoever. I feel that it is "with a probability bordering certainty" that Schnaufer downed J-Johnnie. (Although I know there are people who will contradict me... )

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And still the research goes on.....

An independent researcher in Belgium recently contacted me - he has been researching Schnaufer's career. The 'crashing into the sea' noted in Hinchliffe's book is an error ; the crew's Leistungbuchs refer to a Lancaster being shot down in GK5 ' Auf. Land westl. Amsterdam' .

So, finally, there can be no reasonable doubt - the crew of JB-659 'J-Johnnie' were unfortunate enough on their first Pathfinder operation, to encounter the most successful nightfighter pilot of all time.

[img]graemlins/poppy.gif[/img]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson