Operation winterstorm and Tiger tank

Kai-Petri · #1 (**permalink**) June 9th, 2003, 09:23 PM

I just read that there were Tiger tanks in the operation with which the route to Stalingrad was tried to be reopened. Is this true? If so then what happened to these tanks, any info on their battles or units?

Friedrich · #2 (**permalink**) June 9th, 2003, 11:04 PM

Kai, I am sure I have read and heard that many times, but I have been looking and I cannot find anything.

The only thing I can get is about 1. Kompanie/502. Schwere Panzerabteilung whose 4 first 'Tigers' saw action on August 29th 1942 in the south of Leningrad. But no mentio of Von Manstein's 'Tigers' which, I can bet, were part of the IV Panzer Army... Although that's not a lot of help...

CrazyD · #3 (**permalink**) June 10th, 2003, 02:01 PM

(No sources with me at work, and little time. Will fill out tonight...)

Pretty sure s.Pz.Abt 503 was involved in the action in the Stalingrad area. More info later.

(damn, I wish I had more time today!)

Kai-Petri · #4 (**permalink**) June 10th, 2003, 07:15 PM

Hmmm. I found this but I definitely read they would have taken part in the operation to open the road to Stalingrad...

sPzAbt.503

This battalion was formed in spring/summer 1942 and held open the Rostov gap for the retreat of the German forces near Stalingrad in the Caucasus during the winter of '42-43.

http://www.eliteforces.freewire.co.u...attalions.html

CrazyD · #5 (**permalink**) June 11th, 2003, 01:50 AM

Well, Kai- goes to show you can't believe everything you read!

The following from... Jentz (Tiger I & II: Combat Tactics), W. Schneider (Tigers in Combat I), Klages (Trail of the Tigers) and Restayn (Tiger I on the Eastern Front)...

Neither s.Pz.Abt 502 nor s.Pz.Abt participated in Operation Winterstorm. WinterStorm happened from 12.12.42 until 12.24-25.42. Now, both 503 and 2.Kp. 502 were in fact sent to the eastern front in Dec 42. Problem is, both units arrived far too late to have participated in WinterStorm. s.Pz.Abt 503 was ordered to be ready for transport/deployment to the Eastern front by 12.20.42. At this point, 503 had 20 Tiger Is and 25 Pz III N in Stab and 2 Companies. Here's the problem for Winterstorm- the first elements of the Stab arrived at the eastern front (Proletarskaja) on 1.1.43, and the rest of the Abteilung did not arrive until 1.5.43. Far too late for WinterStorm.
Same this for 2.Kp. s.Pz.Abt 502- they did not arrive on the eastern front until 1.5.43.

Far as I know, these were the first two Tiger units deployed to the eastern front, and none other would have had any Tigers for use in WinterStorm.

Possible reason for the apparent error in whta you read...
One of the panzer divisions involved in Operation Winterstorm was the 17th Panzer Division. AFTER Winterstorm- 2.Kp. s.Pz.Abt 502 went into action attached to the 17th Panzer Div. 2. Kp went into action with PanzerRegiment 39 of the 17th Pz.Dv on 1.7.43.
But again, too late for Winterstorm.

Speaking of first Tigers on the Eastern Front- Friedrich, Herr General, a clarification- the first 4 Tiger I tanks arrived on the Eastern front on 8.29.42. They did not actually go into action until 9.16.42 (Jentz) or 9.21.42(Schneider), when 1.Kp. s.Pz.Abt 502 went into action in the Torlowo sector, south of Lake Ladoga.

[img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img]

[ 10. June 2003, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

Kai-Petri · #6 (**permalink**) June 11th, 2003, 06:02 AM

Thanx for checking that one up, CrazyD!

Friedrich · #7 (**permalink**) June 14th, 2003, 03:59 PM

Thanks, Crazy! But now I must clearify if I typed it wrong or my source is wrong... By the way, my source: "The fearful Tiger I" by Tom Jentz and Hilary Doyle. Which says:

"On July 23rd 1942 Hitler ordered the formation of the first Tiger company to be sent to Leningrad's front. The first unit to receive the Henschel-Tiger was 1. Kompanie/ 502. Schwere Panzerabteilung, the first four Tiger, between August 19th and 20th. These Tigers were compained by four PzKpfw III Ausf. N (75mm), they reached the front and entered into combat on August 29th. Two of the four Tigers were still operative by the end of the day and the other two were recovered and fixed. On September 21st, the Tigers and PzKpfw III were again sent into action, with the loss of a Tiger and too PzKpfw III. This was the first complete loss of a Tiger, when it sunk irreversible in the mud its crew blew it up.
"The rest of the 1. Kompanie reached the front on September 25th with five Tigers and 9 PzKpfw III (KwK L/69 50mm) and five PzKpfw III (75mm). The first nine Tigers of the 502th were Fgst Nr 250002 to 250010, reaching seven more on February 1943."

CrazyD · #8 (**permalink**) June 14th, 2003, 07:59 PM

Nice! Thanks for the reply, Fried. Hmmm... Lets see now.

First off- could you post the ISBN from that Jentz book? That one's new to me- I know of his two technical books on the Tigers, his Tiger I and II combat tactics, and his Tigers at the Front. But "The Fearful Tiger I"? That one's new to me.

Now... here's what Jentz has to say in Tiger I & II: Combat Tactics. "Only a single platoon of four Tigers from the 1. Kompanie s.Pz.Abt 502 arrived on 29 August 1942. They weren't sent into action immediately, as two of them had simply broken down mechanically. ... The Tiger's first actual engagement in combat is related in the following letter... The first attack was on 16 September."
The italics is for the text of the letter.

Now here's what W.Schneider says in Tigers in Combat I...
Entry for 8.29.42 (August 29) "The transports are detrained in MGA, the tanks are ordered to take a defensive position. During the road march, 3 of the 4 Tigers break down due to transmission failure."
Entry for 9.21.42 "The 4 Tigers and several Pz III are attached to the 170th Infanteriedivision. For the following day, an attack through unsuitable terrain near Tortolowo is ordered against the encircled 2nd Soviet shock army."
Entry for 9.22.42 In combat, all tanks are bogged down, and three (?) are hit. Three tanks can be recovered, one remains under enemy fire. It's destruction is prhibited by OKH.

So aparently what we've got is three rather reliable sources that all slightly differ on this one. Hmmmm....
Anyone else have anything on this first engagement?

My theory- the Tigers were delivered and unloaded from the trains on August 29. I'm thinking that maybe some russian forces were actually close enough- in the same area, or maybe the Germans thought they were advancing- that the Tigers were immediately ordered to take defensive positions (as Schneider briefly mentions), but no real action occurred. However, this would qualify as the first time the Tigers were ordered into action.
But I'm guessing that nothing really happened... because... Jentz (Tiger I & II comabt tactics) and Schneider seem to agree that the first real [b]combat[/i] action for the tanks was in mid-late September, 9.16-9.22.
Based on what your Jentz book says- "they reached the front and entered into combat on August 29th. Two of the four Tigers were still operative by the end of the day and the other two were recovered and fixed."- I'm guessing that the "entered into combat" noted there refers to "taking up defensive positions" after being unloaded from the train. Not really the first combat action, but I guess that would qualify as the first time the tanks were sent into action.

It wasn't the tankers fault that no russian forces attacked!!

Martin Bull · #9 (**permalink**) June 14th, 2003, 10:42 PM

Venturing into strange territory here...

Six Tigers arrived at Fallingbostel on 19, 20 and 30 August ( two per day ), the first four going to 1/502 and two by s.Pz.Abt.501. 1/502 left Fallingbostel on 23 August arriving Mga Station, Russia on 29 August. Here's where it gets vague; the Tigers were in action 'within a short time of unloading', rapidly suffering mechanical failures. All four tanks were reported as fit for action on 15th September. On 21 September, they were placed under command of 170th Infantry Divn and went into the attack against the Soviet Second Shock Army on 22nd September.

For what it's worth, these details are taken from Klein & Kuhn, 'Tiger - Die Geschichte Einer Legendaren Waffe ' .

CrazyD · #10 (**permalink**) June 15th, 2003, 06:02 AM

Martin, can you translate that book for me?

OK, what if I say please???

Found out about that particular volume a wee while back. The 502nd is the battalion I'm particularly interested, and from what I understand, Kleine focused on them (and was a vet of the unit?). But I haven't seen anything about the book being translated...

Quote:

Here's where it gets vague;

(Isn't this the best part?!

) Agreed. All the sources I've read are pretty vague on this one. Looking for more sources... Forty in World War 2 Tanks says the Tiger "... from the moment it appeared on the battlefield in the Leningrad area in August 1942,...". 'Course, he dosen't go into any detail about that appearance.

I'm still going with my theory. They were "in action" right after being unloaded from the trains August 28-29. But this "action" consisted of briefly taking up defensive positions- no kills are recorded, the Tigers are not reported as taking any fire- and then going on a relatively short road march, during which 2 suffered transmission failure. The first combat action- where any actual enemies were engaged- seems to be 16-22 September 42. Of course, in this case, at least Schneider(TiC I) and Jentz (Tig. I&II C.T.) record no kills for the Tigers, just bogging down and taking fire.
Well, still not as bad as the Panther's debut!!

Interesting stuff though. My "theory" seems to be just that- a theory. Seems like most of the sources on this are pretty vague about the first Tiger "action".

[img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 15. June 2003, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

Martin Bull · #11 (**permalink**) June 15th, 2003, 07:28 AM

Translate ??

Ja, nein, zwei bier bitte...that's my repertoire of German....

I have the book ( which is huge ) but was also using Peter Gudgin's 'The Tiger Tanks' ( A&AP ) which carefully lists sources and uses Klein/Kuhn for the whole of this episode.

Stevin · #12 (**permalink**) June 15th, 2003, 08:25 AM

I have been following this interesting thread since its conception (?), with a lot of interest. And this morning it hit me: I have a BOOK on this subject (what are the changes of that?);

DIE TIGER KOMMEN! Ostfront 1943 - 1945 by Franz Kurowski.

Content:

- Wie der Tiger Enstand
- Die Schweren Panzerjaegerabteilungen
- Schwere Panzerabteilung 502 in Russland
- Oberleutnant Otto Carius
- Major Willy Jaehde
- Der Rueckzug nach Pstpreussen
- Die Tiger bei der "Leibstandarte"
- Der grosse Siegeslauf
- Die winterschlacht: Brussilow und Shitomir
- Entsatzvorstoss auf Tscherkassy

I am sure Martin is willing to use his languistic capabilities to translate any part of this book that you have need for, Crazy....

But seriuosly, on page 15 he describes what Martin quoted from his book, but with more detail, I guess. He writes about the "widespread misunderstanding" about the arrival and first deployment of the Tigers and spends the next couple of pages describing, partlt through the mouth of veterans, how the first and second attack went and the Lessons Learned.

I don't think this book has been translated into English yet...Martin???

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 15. June 2003, 03:34 AM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]

Martin Bull · #13 (**permalink**) June 15th, 2003, 08:29 AM

Ja ! Achtung ! Zwei bier, bitte !

If you like, I could always try translating from German to Dutch for you...

Stevin · #14 (**permalink**) June 15th, 2003, 08:38 AM

Sure! That's the easy part!

Still, I wish my German was as good as your English...

Oh and another few words to say after what you just wrote and which Germans will certainly understand; Sie haben die Bratwurst vergessen! Schnell, Schnell!

[ 15. June 2003, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]

Martin Bull · #15 (**permalink**) June 15th, 2003, 10:05 AM

Oh - that's easy, it means :

'You have forgotten the hand grenades ! Quickly, quickly ! ' [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Acyually, my English is pretty good some days - self-taught, you know.....

Reminds me of the old Visa Card ads with Rowan Atkinson ; -

Bough : ' Gosh - I didn't realise you were fluent, Sir ! '
Atkinson : ' We're both fluent, Bough - but in different languages ! '

Stevin · #16 (**permalink**) June 15th, 2003, 10:36 AM

Ah, there is no fooling you, my friend!

Now, where is Friedrich??

CrazyD · #17 (**permalink**) June 15th, 2003, 05:22 PM

Well, I eagerly await hearing what Kurowski has to say. Seems like there should be some concrete information on this forst deployment, but... we know how it goes!
Although- from the title of the book -"1943-1945"... so he also covers 1942, eh?

One thing though... I have Kurowski's Panzer Aces (I) and Infantry aces. I get the idea from both of these volumes use quite a bit of, how does one put it, "license"? He seems to have WAY too much information, and I think he tends to pick and choose his sources...

Martin Bull · #18 (**permalink**) June 15th, 2003, 09:12 PM

Hmmm - now, does Kurowski have anything to say about the number of Tigers produced.... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Stevin · #19 (**permalink**) June 15th, 2003, 09:22 PM

Good point, Crazy.

Kurowski has written a large amount of books, of which I have a few, but have read none so far. I always wonder what the scope and depth of his (own) research is.

True, flicking through this book I recognized bits and pieces from other books that I did read and know for sure he used other sources as well. Point is, in this book there is no blibliography or reference to other sources. It could be because this might have been a misprint as I bought it very cheap from a discount store.

I do know he wrote about the first deployment, although the book's title does state "1943 - 1945". I think it is in the sense of a What-went-before.

I will try and translate but it will have to wait till after next weekend, as we are leaving for a short holiday soon. I am sure you will enjoy Kurowski's rendering of events.

Martin, as to the number of tigers build, I haven't seen a quote in Kurowski's book...yet...

m kenny · #20 (**permalink**) June 15th, 2003, 10:44 PM

Kurowski has published hundreds of books since the 1950's. I have read that he did extensive interviews with veterans after the war and this is the basis of his WWII books.I can state that his account of Villers Bocage and Wittmanns death contain a number of serious errors of fact.