There are more. Try Terry Copps collection called 'Montgomery's scientists'. This is just a small selection of what exists. This contains reports from the 2OCS and relate to several aspects of the battle not just falaise.

__________________
Thoughts on Military History
Cornish Scale Modellers
Ross' Military Modelling and Art

m kenny your last sentance may have said it all ! there are still too many unknowns but we do have more information to our disposal than we did in the early 1960's....

Erich, Mahross, M.Kenny- all very well put. This was my idea in the original post... (well, other than questioning the production/kill counts idea!)... because of the very nature of what we study, I think in many cases these events/people will never be "complete" as far as the info goes.
Like Erich said, too many unknowns.

Erich- I certainly would not say that we can "discount" or ignore the info from EITHER side- "good guys" or "bad guys"! Take all the info in, examine, cross-reference, etc. etc.

I'd have to say, personally, this is one of the aspects of studying WW2 that I most enjoy- with almost every aspect or subject, there is still plenty of research and detective work to be done!!

BY the way... considering post-war production- wouldn't the T-34 be the the "most mass-produced tank of the war"?
(Good lord, back on topic!!!)

__________________
Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Crazy--from one of my lines that you posted as a quote: ["In all probability--Remy knocked out more than he claimed."] With you posting this--its apparent you do not understand the meaning? I don't know how else to explain it. Also--if Remy's record is something you have a mission on to dispute--why don't you send a PM to Bill Smith and he can explain using better tact than I can?

I don't know what point you were making when it comes to my quote posted above?

Remys kills were confirmed by, 1) the number of KOed tanks on the field after Paul-Albert Kausch and the Germanic SS counterattacked and retook the area bearing in mind that no further Russian armor was KIA'd in this action. 2) Artillery observers 3) Survivors from his battery (there were three guns with crews of 8--remember? though many wounded and some killed--some DID observe his actions) 4) Konrad Schellong--Remy's CO--also observed the action taking place. 5) Waffen SS Infantry who were in the area.

That is how Remy's "score" was recorded and confirmed.

[ 06. October 2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Crazy I think you maybe corect on that, the T-34 being king as to total numbers in production which I am sure would and could include post WW 2 nummerations due to the number of Tanks made and sold to mid east nations.......

m kenny since you have the book Lion of the Flanders, if it is not too long of an exerpt can you cut and paste it here or would you rather not ? that maybe a problem with copyright though.......

~E

The entry for the 3 day battle is 77 pages long! However this is the award citation:

" On 7/26/44 at 0900 hours the Russians attacked with three T-34s along
the "Narva-Reval" highway. Schrynen knocked out two T-34s at a distance of
400 meters. During the afternoon at 1500 hours the Russians attacked again
with infantry forces, and was supported by artillery and heavy grenade launch-
ers. Schrynen again knocked out two T-34s and a single "Stalin" tank. A fur-
ther T-34 was damaged. It's crew disembarked. The damaged tank was prob-
ably dragged away during the night. On 7/27/44 at 0400 hours the Geschutz
Schreynen moved to a position 400 meters north of the Hill Kinderheim, left
of the "Narva-Reval" highway. Schreynen recognized a position where eleven
Soviet tanks were preparing to attack. Under the protection of two T-34s, six
T-34s and one KW II approached the highway from the north. At a distance of
700 meters, Scheynen knocked out a T-34. The two T-34s in position to attack
the others shot at the anti-tank gun. Schreynen cleared a jam in the gun and 5
minutes later he knocked out a KW II. Immediately thereafter the Geschutz
was knocked out by a direct hit. Sch. was named in the Wehrmacht reports
that followed the battle."

The book also states Schrijnen says he did not knock out any KVII's. The book also says:

" The battles west of Narva would continue for maybe a week and a half, al-
though there were only local skirmishes after July 29th. By the end of the battles,
the Germans registered 113 destroyed Soviet tanks. Despite this relative success,
the casualties were very high, and besides the completely annihilated SS-
Freiwilligen-Regiment 48, many officers and their men were killed. Among oth-
ers, Obersturmbannfuhrer Arnold Stoffers, commander of Regiment 23 "Nordland,"
Obersturmbannfuhrer Hans Collani, commander of Regiment 49, "De Ruyter,"
Sturmbannfuhrer J. Sooden, commander of the I. Bataillon of Regiment 47 and
Obersturmbannfuhrer Hermenegild Graf von Westphalen zu Furstenberg, com-
mander of Regiment 24 "Danmark," were all killed. Also, the commander of the
Division "Nordland," SS-Gruppenfuhrer und Generalleutnant derWaffen-SS Fritz
von Scholz, died after receiving mortal wounds inflicted by an attacking T-34.
That so many higher officers were killed in battle is a testament to the brutality of
the struggle and the even worse fate of the average soldier.
The Flemings themselves also suffered a devastating fate. Of the approximate
four hundred men that comprised the battle group just a few days earlier, only
some 37 survived without serious wounds. One thing was certain, the memory of
those few days would remain with the survivors for the rest of their lives."

what the heck is going on here ? I think there is a T-34/85 trying to get a round up my butt........

Mkenny, one thing I will admit to is that I am no expert on armor--Russian armor and it has been a few years since I last read Remys Schrijnens book. I'm also a bit dusty on exact details but, when it comes to Remy's carreer--I KNOW what i'm talking about.

What you also have there is also a condensed version of what happened and all details are not in the book. How do I know? BECAUSE Remy told me so.

Many things are left out to keep the story flowing and interesting. This book is not abridged--meaning it does not contain everything that happened.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

PS, I also have about 25 or so letters from Remy. Am I supposed to get them all translated word for word and post them here?

Well.....I AINT.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

As to the tank figures, I'm not sure about the exact numbers, but the most produced tank was the Sherman. Almost 52.000 were produced. The T-34 is closely behind with some 48.000. Anything beyond that is an exageration. Besides, we all know that those figures individually are twice the numbers of all German armoured vehicles produced.

And I agree with Crazy about the different strategies having to do more with masss productions than everything. Very simple, if the German industry could have produced more tanks, they would have made more! They used a quality, better-training strategy because they didn't have any other option.

And I'd say that the figures of kills confirmations are a very difficult issue. Maybe many figures are incorrect but that doesn't mean the men were less good at their jobs, right?

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

C.Evans I did not reply to your reply in which you commented on my 'attitude'. However you have again posted in a simalar manner so...........

"PS, I also have about 25 or so letters from Remy. Am I supposed to get them all translated word for word and post them here?

Well.....I AINT."

Well DON'T! Who asked you to and what exactly are you trying to prove?
I have too spoken with a British 'HERO' from WWII but don't feel the need to brag about it.


"What you also have there is also a condensed version of what happened and all details are not in the book. How do I know? BECAUSE Remy told me so"

Good, you have special information and of course we should accept your word as good enough for us because.....well because why?

"when it comes to Remy's carreer--I KNOW what i'm talking about."


Again I am glad we have people who instinctively know what is right and we should all thank you for sharing your insight with us.

Grow up and stop all this nonesense.

No offense guys but why don't you all grow up? Maybe I am doing a 'pot' impression here (you guys being the kettel) but calm down, Carl, Kenny means no offense (though I don't get how being British has anything to do with it) just is trying to get a point across, much as you are. No report is 100% accurate, take the example of Halivadar Umrau Singh who beat back a company of Japanese, to read the report it would sound like he did it on his own, no, he was just the only survivor of his unit and he was the one who wound up fighting hand to hand on his own killing 30 Japanese almost single handed. Reports came from his men and his British Officer. The thing is, what is important is the story and what was achieved, whether this chap killed the whole Red Army or just 2 tanks, surley we can just be impressed by the fact that he kept fighting.

So far as the issue of numbers is concerned, well did the Luftwaffe not count partial kills (say 1/3 of a kill) as an whole kill, thus if five pilots all reported a share in the same kill then five extra kills would be reported. I have also read (please don't ask for sources, too early in the morning) claims that where men like Wittman were credited with hundreds of kills, which naturaly people believe to be tanks, many of them were also soft targets, carriers etc. This is basically what happened to Richthoven, 80 kills, a high percentage of which were not fighters but rediculously weak British and French 2 seaters. People simply toggled onto the idea of the Red Barron who destroyed 80 fighters in single combat.

I have forgotten what I was trying to get at so now I will stop before this gets out of hand, I suggest some of you consider doing the same.

__________________
There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Not going to get involved in this pissing match, but I apparently do need to clarify my main point.

vs

Carl- that is a contradiction. Either his kills were confirmed, or he scored higher than the "official" count. Can't have it both ways.

As I noted earlier, you proved my point yourself. Wether the real number is higher or lower, the point stands (by your own words on Remy) that the kill numbers he is "officially" acredited with may well NOT be the real kill counts for his engagments.

Hope that makes my point clear (and does not solicit any more insults ).

Damn right!

Damn right again!

__________________
Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

guys, much of the last posting's most probably should of been done by a private e-mail.......as we are coming to a slugging match. This is a Warning to all that some of the posts maybe edited. Back on topic please or start another one.

The affirmation of Remy's, Wittmann's or any tank, pz jgr ace, stug or Air force pilot from any nation will always be debated with no-end results.
those men were there, they were part of those particular actions. All we can do is read about them and enjoy their stories and be totally amazed that they made it through, some to war's end and some not so fortunate. We can see this in our very own Sapper's memories here on the boards. Please, let's not be so hasty to discredit ones victory claims, as most or nearly all of us do not have the days statistics in our possession........

ok back to production numbers.......who has production figures for the Cromwell and does anyone know just how many through British sources were sent to the Soviets as lend lease... ? a slight tweak on our original question

~E

Only too happy to (try and!) oblige, herr Leutnant!

At work, so I'm limited to internet sources... I did a quick search, and found the following info. NOTE- this stuff comes from a wargaming site, with no source listed- so Ifor one can certainly not vouch for it's accuracy!


from http://www.islandnet.com/~citizenx/Stalins3.html
(I boldfaced the numbers...)

Odd though... nothing listed here for Cromwells!?

And more...
from http://www.skalman.nu/worldwar2/su-lendlease.htm
No specific numbers for each type here... and still no Cromwells?

No tanks listed in this next source, but- it is a 25+ (!!) page list of ALL the goods sent from the US to Russia. Interesting stuff... I scrolled through it quickly and saw, among other things, 80,000+ Pounds of Caffeine!!!

__________________
Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Excellent Crazy ! wonder if the Soviet Union in return gave several hundred thousand bootles of premium Vodka as down payment ?
I wonder too how many Shermans were sent on lend-lease to the Soviets as well... ?

cheers

~E

The total number of specific tanks shipped being in the end of the latter site ( sent by CrazyD in his last post )??

6 Cromwells? etc.

__________________

I have to say i have never heard of the russians recieving Cromwells. I know, as Crazy pointed out, that Matilda's, Valentine's and Churchill's were supplied but i would have thought that the Cromwell was produced to late in the war at a time when soviet tank production was at it peak and therefore didn't need lend lease tanks but much rather the more mundane things like boots and trucks.

Out of interest where did you read this Erich?

__________________
Thoughts on Military History
Cornish Scale Modellers
Ross' Military Modelling and Art

Heh... That list is damn interesting- and amusing!!
Cigarettes, Caffeine, etc. etc.... those "necessities" we often forget about!!

As far as the Shermans goes, again, much of what I've found in my brief search this afternoon has been info on wargaming sites.
BUT- heres one of them -http://www.wargamer.com/cmbb/lendlease.asp- that has some specifics on the Shermans sent.
M4A2 75mm Sherman- ~2,007 shipped, ~1,750 arrived
M4A2 76mm Sherman- ~2,095 shipped, ~1,850 arrived

Another interesting tidbit form the above site- Considering how Churchill felt about Stalin, this one is rather interesting.

Again though, since the most of the info I've found has come from wargaming websites, I would be interested in some more "reliable" info...

Edit after seeing Kai and Mahross's posts
Kai, good note! I missed entirely that list near the bottom- according to the skalman site, there were 6 Cromwells sent.

And another- looks like I actually forgot to note the web addy from that site that listed the Caffeine and whatnot.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/lend.html
There ya go!
Some amusing highlights-
Tacks 900,422 Ibs.
Barbed wire 81,459,023 lbs.
Bags of jute 5,538 lbs.
---(What is a bag of jute??)--
Dental creams 78 lbs.
---(What? Only 78 lbs. of Dental creams??)
Dynamite l0,781,450 lbs.

Figures, now I can't find the listing for Caffeine on there.
Maybe my morning coffe had something to do with it...

[ 07. October 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

__________________
Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Mkenny--I too know a British Hero--thanks to a great British friend of mine. He is a V.C. Recipeint and is the only living one who was in the DLI. What he did on the River Dyle can easily be matched with what Remy did (though not the same kind of action) and he can also be compared to our most highly decorated soldier of ww2 and Medal of Honor Recipeint--Audie Leon Murphy.

Lets take Murphy as a prime example.

He was also credited with killing somewhere between 50-100 German Infantry in one single action. This was on board a burning Sherman tank along with its exploding ammunition. Audies was wounded in the explosion of one of the tanks shells in the process.

So you cannot tell me that feats such as what Murphy or Capt Annand went through cannot be matched bu someone who fought with the Waffen SS.

Whatever you are trying to