I know there's the T-34 and the Sherman but were either of these the most produced tanks or was it another?

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Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer without being able to do it- Sun Tzu

I don't know how many T-34s were produced but--they made about 70,000 Shermans.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

A quick stat off the top of my noggin. I'm not sure if there were more shermans or T-34s produced, but I do know that there were more of each of these tanks produced during the war than the Germans produced AFV's!! That means there were more Shermans made than there were Germans AFV's and more T-34's than there were German AFV's. That is a VERY lopsided way to fight a war.

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Isn't it also intersting that we as the US had to send the Soviets much needed Sherman's and the British many a Cromwell to bolster the Soviet defence.........is this an indication of the huge masses of German Panzer claims as actually being true ?

just two cents from the bottom of the bowl

~E

It's hard to answer about the T-34, because more than 1 variant was built there's the T-34/76, and the T-34/88.

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"Family, friends, religion. These are the demons you must slay if you are to become successfull in bussiness. When opportunity knocks, you don't want to be sitting in some phoney-baloney church... or a SINAGOGUE!" - Montgomery Burns

Some production levels for T-34/76

1940 = 115

1941 = 2800

1942 = 12553

1943 =

1944 =

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Some production levels for T-34/76

1940 = 115

1941 = 2800

1942 = 12553

1943 = 15812

1944 = 3500

For T-34/85 = 23204

Which is a total of 57,984

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

hey guys. heres an interesting link about the T-34 and it's production rates.

http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_76_2.html

I can't seem to find anything on the rate of Shermans. If anyone does please let me know.

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Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer without being able to do it- Sun Tzu

Thanks for the link OTF--there is much interesting info there.

I think Erich also hit on something. This is to do with the Germans claiming such huge #s of kills of Russian tanks. I more than tend to believe that the claims are true--especially since KNOWING the careers of many [img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img] like Remy Schrijnen, Ernst Barkmann, Franz Jukuscat (SP?) Hermann Bix, Michael Wittmann and so many others.

To put it in another perspective--to do with Luftwaffe aces.

[img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img] Erich Hartmann--352 victories.
[img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img] Gunther Rall--275 victories.

Thats 627 between these two--if my math is not wrong.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I can't see the correlation between many T-34s being produced- and believability of kill claims??
The two are completely unrelated!!


I tend to believe some of the very high kill claims by german "aces"... but then again, there are many that simply don't add up.
For one thing, if one believes many of the books out there, almost ALL the german tank aces had kill #s that were evenly divisible by 10!! Gee... that seems like the numbers may be rounded out, eh?
Another factor... How would it ever be possible to verify all of one's kill claims? Many of these tank battles happened at long range, under difficult conditions, and in many cases, with the german forces retreating from the battlefield once the engagement finished.
But somehow we are to believe that the forces involved were able to accurately count the number of tanks destroyed in every engagement??

another 2 cents from even lower in the bowl...

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

why unrelated ? more destruction, the more a need for enmasse production and that is what the Soviet Union was doing. I think it is just odd as you say on the number of kills but it seems awfully feasible to me that the Panzer kills made were pretty much true to mark. We all know the excelelnce of the German Panzer optics especially from 43 onward in the late Panthers and Tiger variants........

~E

Good point, Erich. But- I think it's more due to the whole Russian philosophy at the time. Russian generals all the way up to Stalin were notorious for a willingness to sacrifice their troops. This idea also went into armor- better produce thousands of tanks and lose quite a few, while still winning the war. The russian war economy was simply more geared towards mass production than that of the germans.
That was my main point- production numbers have MUCH more to do with factors of the wartime economy- resources, labor, etc.- than any direct reaction to enemy successes.
The russians would have manufactured thousands of T-34s wether the germans had better tanks or not!

I'd agree with that sentiment. Pretty close in most cases.

You know my whole editorial background- I tend to look at all the information with a critical eye!

I should clarify one thing- my comments on kill counts/veterans' memories are in NO WAY meant ot be disrespectful towards ANY veterans. I have HUGE amounts of respect for any vets who fought for their country.

I just would have to imagine... in the hectic tank battles, it MUST have been difficult to determine any sorts of exact numbers. I often look to the example of the wing cameras installed on most allied fighters... correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't one of the major reasons for those cameras due to the wildly exaggerated kill numbers claimed by allied pilots?

As in the case with German tank crews... these exagerrated claims are not a reflection on the people making the claims, but on the chaos and intensity of the battles they fought in. Considering the battles these soldiers were participating in... can we really expect them to gain a perfect picture of exactly what happened?

Does that make sense?

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

sure and your clarification was needed as I did not really state as such.

OT but yes the cameras were installed in both US and Luftwaffe fighters for the possiblity of overclaiming which both still did till wars end.

slightly, I should say major OT but with German nf crews many times they did not know where they shot an RAF bomber down by location. They would pick the closest city/village documented on their onboard maps and then mark it. Also ID was often wrong and the a/c type was just marked 4-engine bomber.

During the last hectic phases on the Ost Front, many German crews were not postive as to the Soviet types they knocked out. There was so much brutal action in the winter of 44-45 and the terrain, fog, sleet, rain, snow that it was almost impossible to clarify unless proper assessment could be done after a battle, and in 1945 the Germans were often times not the sole victor over the field, as close in actions were doubly repeated during the course of the day......street by street, block by block or farm village by farm village.

Erich, that's pretty much exactly what I meant. In many cases, determining a "kill count" would have been EXTREMELY difficult, simply due to practical matters!
If three German tanks were firing on a group of russian tanks, how would they tell who actually knocked which one out?

I can think of many circumstances that would make an after-the-battle assessment very hard.
THAT is my whole point/issue with the whole "kill count" idea.
But - at least in the case of most german tank aces- I would certainly believe that their "kill counts" are at least a VERY good estimate!

And on the T-34/Sherman production figures, I really think these numbers simply demonstrate a different approach than that of the Germans. The Germans built VERY high quality tanks and AFVs, both in terms of technical quality and worksmanship.
The Russians and Americans? They just figured to mass-produce so many T-34s and Shermans that they simply swamped the Germans.
I think the common concensus here on the forums is right on the mark- The Tiger and Panther are almost ALWAYS cited as the "best" tanks of the war... while the T-34 is also almost always cited as the most important/ most useful tank of the war.

Good stuff....

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

I think it is very revealing that these high scores by German Tankers were very rare in Normandy. Perhaps because in Normandy it is possible to check for confirmation of any such kills?
Apart from 1 or 2 isolated examples it just did not happen in the West. Feys claims for 16 Shermans in one day is not confirmed and even Wittmann did not do as well as his Russian reputation suggested he would.

Remember C that the German Panzers had on-board radios.

Case in point was the remarkable blowing away of JS II's and T-34's in the spring of 1945 by Karl Bromann and two other Königstiger's of SS Schwere Pz. Abt. 503.

these Tigers had infiltrated Soviet lines and came upon a Soviet armor column. By keeping in close radio contact two of the big heavies obliterated the Soviet armor while the other Tiger occasionaly fired as well but kept the two Tigers covered from the rear

~E

M Kenny, I wonder what Schneiders new book on SS Schwere Pz. Abt. 102/502 will have to say about Will Fey's claims.... ?

~E

I imagine the same as he said in Tigers In Combat I/II. i.e. most Tigers were abandonned by the crews and very few were destroyed by enemy action!

Or it could have something to do with the complete allied air supremacy in Normandy- a level of air supermacy never achieved by the Russians.

Erich, your example is good info as to why I would agree that MOST of the kill-counts are probably very close to the actual numbers. IN some cases, I'm sure the german tankers got the numbers exactly right. In other cases, I'm also just as sure that some numbers were incorrect. Even more, in some cases I bet the German tankers intentionally inflated their numbers- but along this same line, I'm also sure that in some cases they UNDER-estimated!

Unfortunately, I doubt there is really any way to ever prove or dis-prove any of the kill counts claimed during the war...

Anyway, my main point on this one is the lack of relationship between kill-counts and production philosophies!

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Hi Craze--I was merely trying to suggest that the high kill claims by Panzer crews can be trus as they high claims were proven to be true when referring to Luftwaffe Aces.

Read The Blonde Knight Of Germany by Raymond Tolliver. You will see what I mean.

Tolliver was a USAF Officer and had met Erich hartmann and many other LW Aces, and at that time it was thought that their claims were vastly inflated until actual gun camera footage was shown many times that could correspond with these mens claims.

Take this back to WW1--Richthoffen had 80 confirmed and 2 unconfirmed victories while flying an aircraft(on most occasions) that was proven to be VERY difficult to handle. You could not see to your front when taking off or landing, and when engaged in a dogfight(which was not recommended) it was very difficult for the pilot of a Fokker DR1 Tri-plane to see what he was shoting at.

I think Richthoffens record stands for itself and proves the point I am trying to make.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

M Kenny, I am not too sure on that.......also the Kameradschaft of the 102/502 was or is preparing a book on the same subject matter. As Willi is no longer with us it may prove enlightening as to what was the real figure(s). yes Allied Air came into play if anything to hamper the heavy German armor not so much as to destroy it. Normandy was a killing ground no doubt and I still have some questions to pose as I do about Ost front ops. Too many doubts still about both. Propaganda was a big issue for both German/Soviet forces and what better way to inflate a little so the public could be proud of their hero's while working hard at home and to build moral.

~E

The point is ANY Allied tank hit by 'an ace' is counted as a kill. However it seems that any German tank hit is NOT counted as a loss if the wreck could be hauled away for repair. If the wreck had to be scrapped then it is said to be abandonment!
Up to a third of the Shermans hit were repaired so again I am highly skeptical of these mutiple every-hit-is a-kill claims. Can anyone point me to a checkable source, that is other than the report of the crew claiming the kills?

Ummm... not wanting to get into a debate... but are you suggesting that because some claims by LUFTWAFFE aces have been verified- this makes the claims by panzer commanders automatically believable?
(And what this has to do with high production numbers??)

How are claims by Luftwaffe aces related to claims by Panzer crews? Especially when one considers that some of the planes had cameras which could verify a claim, wheras there was simply NO WAY to verify claims by panzer commanders?

Methinks I will maintain my editorial scepticism!

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Although I believe that Mr. Kenny may be TOO sceptical of German sources, he does have the perfect point here-