Axis

Members: 5,156
Threads: 16,692
Posts: 207,127
Online: 195

Newest Member:
teejay

 
 
 
Go Back   World War II Forums > General Discussion > Information Requests
Register FAQ Gallery Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Information Requests Doing research? Working on a project? Need Help? Ask Here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old April 10th, 2004, 10:22 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 143
Daniel Jones is an unknown quantity at this point
Cool

This is the second time I have posed this question, however, last time I recieved no response. Who ordered such severe bombing of Stalingrad that it was reduced to a "fortress of rubble"? This was not a lengthy process, rather it happened in roughly two days. Was it Richtofen himself, or did Paulus request that he obliterate the city?
__________________
Cheers,
Daniel
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old April 11th, 2004, 12:35 AM
FramerT's Avatar
WW2F Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,565
FramerT has a spectacular aura aboutFramerT has a spectacular aura about
Not 100% sure but I think Paulus ordered it because they[6th Army] came under counter-attack by 62 Army with tanks pouring out of the tank factory.Paulus had accomplished the original goal of surrounding Stalingrad and cutting off the Volga. Hopefully the city would surrender or at least evacuate.Even if the Luftwaffe did'nt bomb it,a frontal attack of a city would have been costly. Tanks,Paks hidden inside buildings.Paulus' artillery and tanks would have demolished them anyway.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old April 11th, 2004, 06:39 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 143
Daniel Jones is an unknown quantity at this point
Cool

Do you happen to know where you found that peice of information, because I have been looking for months and cannot find a book that clearly states who ordered the bombings. The sources I have viewed acknowledge that it took place and give the results, but not who ordered it. Do you really think that tanks and artillery could do the amount of damage to a city that the Luftwaffe did? Check out the aerial photographs of the damage done to the city, the desolate landscapes and the view from the other side of the Volga. If tanks and artillery could do that, it would have taken a hell of alot longer than two bloody days!
__________________
Cheers,
Daniel
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old April 11th, 2004, 10:54 AM
FramerT's Avatar
WW2F Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,565
FramerT has a spectacular aura aboutFramerT has a spectacular aura about
You probably have the book,"Stalingrad.Infernal Caulron". As you said the book does'nt say "who"ordered the bombing.Seems logical Paulus would have made the call.The Luftwaffe can't just come in on their own,not knowing if "friendlies" are in the area.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old April 11th, 2004, 11:14 AM
Kai-Petri's Avatar
Kenraali
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Kotka, Finland
Posts: 14,029
Kai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really nice
Unfortunately cannot remember who ordered this although on Leningrad and Moscow Hitler´s order was to crush them down to earth and in the case of Moscow put an artificial lake instead.

So I guess it was Hitler in the end...

But anyway I´ll see for data in my books on this but here´s something interesting on Richthofen´s doings in the area...

http://stonebooks.com/archives/980721.shtml

"Richthofen aimed to ensure success by reinforcing his old Fliegerkorps, VIII, now commanded by his protege, Martin Fiebig, with the bulk of the aircraft from Luftflotte 4's other Fliegerkorps, Pflugbeil's IV, in the Caucasus. This concentration of airpower at a single schwerpunkt -- Richthofen's hallmark -- resulted in the 23 August raid on Stalingrad which matched the intensity and civilian casualties of a typical Allied strategic bombing mission against Germany in 1944, leaving much of the city gutted by fire and as many as 20,000-40,000 dead. As usual, though, most of Richthofen's sorties were in direct support of the advancing infantry and panzers clawing through the streets of the city. Confident that his flyers' exertions had opened the way through the city in the last days of August, the air chief (never one to underplay his own achievements) dispatched his operations officer to complain to Goering and Hitler that the army was not moving fast enough or decisively enough to take advantage of the golden opportunities his Luftflotte was handing them."
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old April 11th, 2004, 11:53 AM
Kai-Petri's Avatar
Kenraali
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Kotka, Finland
Posts: 14,029
Kai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really nice
Post

Actually I missed that part at the end of the article...

----------

Fliegerkorps VIII performed well against its primary target, Stalingrad, pounding it into rubble during heavy raids, but its continued bombardment of the ruins in accordance with Hitler's insistence that every street be cleared of the enemy led to a great waste of resources. For two months, Fiebig's units rained hundreds of tons of bombs on the ruins each day, turning small heaps of large rubble into large heaps of small rubble, but achieving nothing substantial. This was neither Fiebig's or Richthofen's fault. Hitler wanted Stalingrad taken, and he insisted that all efforts be directed to that end. Even after he realized that the oil fields could not be gained in 1942 and ordered Richthofen to destroy them from the air, he still insisted that the destruction and capture of Stalingrad remained his highest priority.

With the benefit of hindsight, it is now reasonable to argue that Richthofen's air fleet could have dealt the Soviet economy a major blow, from which it would have taken at least several months to recover, if it had unloaded as many bombs on Baku as on Stalingrad. Heavy damage to that oil metropolis, which alone accounted for 80 percent of all Soviet production, was possible during August and September. Richthofen still possessed a strong bomber force and airfields within striking range, and the VVS's presence in the Caucasus was still relatively weak. By October, when Hitler finally ordered attacks on oil fields, Richthofen's bomber fleet was much reduced and most forward airfields had been badly damaged by VVS forces, which were now far stronger. The opportunity had been missed.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old April 11th, 2004, 06:52 PM
Kai-Petri's Avatar
Kenraali
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Kotka, Finland
Posts: 14,029
Kai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really nice
Post

On Beevor´s Stalingrad it is claimed Richthofen got the order for Stalingrad from Hitler´s HQ to deliver all his planes to Stalingrad battle.Not literally to destroy it to pieces (?) however but what else would it mean...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old April 12th, 2004, 05:25 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 143
Daniel Jones is an unknown quantity at this point
Arrow

Thanks alot Kai for your input. I have looked in Stopped at Stalingrad, Infernal Cauldron, Paulus and Stalingrad, the Beevor book, Hitler's Stalingrad Decisions, and several others but have not found mention of actual orders. But it is as you say Kai, if Hitler ordered all the strength of Richtofen's Air Fleet to Stalingrad, what else could it mean?
__________________
Cheers,
Daniel
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old April 12th, 2004, 05:55 AM
Kai-Petri's Avatar
Kenraali
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Kotka, Finland
Posts: 14,029
Kai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really niceKai-Petri is just really nice
You´re welcome, Daniel!

And from the books I think it seems like Richthofen himself wanted to bomb the oil fields more than Stalingrad .
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Google
 

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:41 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5
Copyright © 2000 - 2007, the World War II Network, all rights reserved.Ad Management by RedTyger

Allies