chaps, ok during late 44 through 1945 Mossie intruders were protecting the many RAF heavies, i.e. lancs and Hali's. A couple of questions.

1. these RAF escorts were called not intruders but ?

2. at about what height were they flying.... ? above off to the side to wrad off German nf.s ?

3. now to their bases. They were approx. how close in miles to the RAF heavy bases, or were they on the same base bu opposite ends of the field ?

thank you gents, and still looking for the penultimate Mossie night fighter book.....Martin, still working on yours correct ??

Erich ~

Your questions deserve a more thorough response than this quick summary, Erich - but I need to excavate some of my books.... [img]redface.gif[/img]

Specific night-fighter protection for Bomber Command was the responsibility of 110 ( Bomber Support ) Group, formed on 8 November 1943.

The missions they flew were given a bewildering array of code-names, some relating to the AI radar equipment carried. These names included Mahmoud, Flower, Serrate, Moonshine, Night Ranger, ASH, Piperack, Firebash.....A whole thread could be written about these !

Operational activities varied considerably, but frequently followed this three-phase pattern : low-level intruders carrying two bombs ( Mosquito FBVIs ) patrolled enemy airfields. AI aircraft ( Mosquito XIX or NFXXX ) flew out low and climbed above and ahead of the bomber stream to identify and attack early nachtjagd crews. These would continue patrolling at high level until 30 minutes after the raid. Then additional low-level Mosquitoes would patrol Luftwaffe airfields waiting for returning nightfighters.

100 Group were based at airfields in Norfolk, away from the main Bomber Command bases but closer in a straight line to the main German nightfighter bases in Holland and the low countries.

How's that for a start ? Now, if I can just find my 100 Group books..... [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Hello gents,

Indeed, as I understand, the kind of protection you mention would have been made up from different kind of missions, as Martin points out. Recently, I superficially delved into Serrate missions:

Serrate Patrol. These were Mosquito night fighters with the newly developed Serrate radar. The German Night fighters used the Liechtenstein radar to home in on British bombers. The Serrate radar was able to pick up the German radar from 100 miles distance. This gave the British a great advantage over the Germans. The mosquito would fly to a German operational/assembly area (box), where the German night fighters would wait until directed to a British bomber. Serrate patrols were meant to pre-empt the Germans, home in on them when they had their own radar systems on to track the bombers and shoot them down.

The first Serrate Mossie was lost on 22 Feb 1944 over Holland. It was flown by Australian P/O Desmond Snape of 141 Sqn.

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Great idea...I'm intrigued by what I've read so far

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Regards,

Gordon
http://www.freewebs.com/thehistoryvault/
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I'll give you a detailed run down on this once I finish with the Red Baron's Kursk OOB. Electronic warfare is one of my "specialities." I have detailed info on how these operations were done, tactics, equipment etc.

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Truth is stranger than bullshit!

please start a new thread then chaps if need be.

I have such minimal information on the night air war concerning RAF ops and the Mossie nf's in general.

ok I pulled up a page out of my data files.

Mossies : ranger, intruder, night support, bomber support. Can anyone precisely define these terms for me ?

Serrate first used on the night of June 14, 1943.

this is old info from my files : June 14/15, 1943 to Sept. 6/7 1943

233 sorties despactched
179 sorties completed as patrols
1180 Serrate contacts
490 held and followed contacts
33 resulting in visuals
20 resulting in combats
13 destroyed a/c and 1 probable, 4 damaged

are these realistic figures ? the info from the early 1960's......

E `

T.A. and others please add as this is all so beneficial to two of my projects...........and thanks in advance gents

To keep the thread going ( while I'm looking for my 100 Group books... ) jeremy Howard-Williams' book 'Night Intruder' ( David & Charles, 1976 ) contains an interesting first-hand description of a 'typical' Mosquito night intruder mission.

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

I've probably said it before, but if you are researching this area then you really do need Martin Streetly's 'Confound And Destroy - 100 Group & The Bomber Support Campaign ' ( Macdonald & Janes, 1978 ). This book gives so much detail that I can't hope to paraphrase it here.

It answers one of the original questions by showing a splendid diagram of a typical 1944/45 raid showing 100 Groups' support measures.

For the Mosquito squadrons, 192 Sqn would fly in front of the stream using 'Piperack' to jam German radar in the 95-210MhZ band. AI-equipped Mosquito fighters would patrol the sides of the stream while other NF Mosquitoes would weave over the top of the stream.

Othe 100 Group 'heavies' would be in the stream using Mandrel, Carpet, Jostle, Dina, Airborne Cigar......

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Martin as I await T.A.'s findings on British radar systems, is the book you mentioned available anywhere ? this is one sorry to say that I was neglegent to pick up

E ♪

Erich, the book has been out-of-print for some years, but several copies are available from US dealers on Bookfinder at prices which are not too high ( the first edition, in hardback cover, sells for more than the 2nd which was a paperback ).

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Martin I will look for it today...thank you

Ok an opening bit on British nightfighter ops:

These were typically flown at 15 to 25,000 feet. There were two basic types:
The support operation where the fighter flew in support of the bomber stream. These flights could be done on either side, behind or, above the bomber stream.
The intruder operation where the fighter flew independent operations away from the bomber stream(s), often orbiting near known German nightfighter airfields waiting on returning aircraft.

There were three basic 'modes' of operation which relied primarily on ESM measures to begin the interception. These were:

Serrate: Serrate was a ESM device designed to home on Lichtenstein B, BC and C emmissions. Later models were developed to home on the SN-2 model also. There were several different marks of Serrate and all operated roughly the same varying in details. Serrate displayed on two small CRT screens mounted side by side with the traces set at 90 degrees to each other (one horizontal, one vertical). A set of herringbone lines would emminate from the trace to each side of it when a detection was made. The longer these lines were the closer the target was. The side of the trace showing more lines (they were asymmetric in output) showed the relative position of the target...left / right, above / below. The operator could by this method talk the pilot into an intercept position where the AI radar could then pick up the target (maybe, hopefully....) and complete the interception.
In practice early models of Serrate proved susceptible to false indications from Würtzburg radars and in some cases, Freya as well. Directional indication was also found to be insuffficently fine to often turn contacts into interceptions. It also didn't help that most Serrate nightfighters (usually a Beaufighter) were equipped with AI Mk IV.
AI Mk IV radar was a metric (1.5m wavelength)set. Its performance was roughly equivalent to Lichtenstein SN-2. It suffered from poor minimun range (about 800 meters), and interference from Window and bomber stream ECM outputs that decreased its effectiveness considerably.
With later model Serrate devices with improved sensitivity and better AI radars in service it proved a valuable tool in making interceptions.

Next was Perfectos. Perfectos was, in theory, the perfect ESM homing device. It gave everything necessary for a successful interception....in theory....
What Perfectos did was interrogate German FuG 25 Estling IFF systems and get a response. The operator, like with Serrate, could then direct the pilot onto the target, which was definitely an enemy, by similar methods to those of Serrate.
In practice, Perfectos proved insensitive enough to often bring the using aircraft into contact range (bearing accuracy was about + or - 3 degrees). Also, the German pilots figured out that their IFF was being messed with and often left the sets turned off prefering to take their chances with their own flak to those of being shot down by a British nightfighter. Again there were several models differing in detail in use.
Perfectos was also used by the USAAF in daylight operations as an early warning system. Somewhere I have a photo of a P-51B equipped with it too which might make a neat model as the plane is sprouting whip antennas from everywhere!
Anyway, perfectos equipped squadrons were typically Mosquito equipped and had AI Mk X (US SCR 720) radar systems. This radar proved highly successful and resulted in a good number of intercepts on its own. It was largely uneffected by jamming and Window due to it being a centimetric set. This was probably the most successful airborne nightfighter radar of the war.

The last ESM set the British used was Monica. This was really a tail warning radar that had been in widespread use with Bomber Command....right up until a captured Ju 88 with Flensburg showed it was being used as a homing device to lead German nightfighters to their prey.
In nightfighter ops, the British turned this knowledge into a means of ambush. The nightfighter with Monica radiated allowing a German nightfighter to home on the plane. Once the German had closed to about 3000 to 5000 yards and Monica indicated a contact the British pilot was instructed to perform a "Whiting maneuver." This was a racetrack turn designed to bring the British nightfighter around behind its quarry and return it on its original course, now behind the German stalking it. As most Monica equipped nightfighters had AI Mk X (Mosquito) or AI Mk XV (US AN/APS-4) (Mosquito or Beaufighter with thimble nose) and both of these sets being very accurate centimetric radars it was usually possible to convert these contacts into an interception and often into a kill.

It is important to note that in all cases it was more the availability of good or excellent AI radar rather than the ESM system that allowed contacts to be turned into a kill. The ESM only allowed the nightfighter crew to initiate contact, something all three systems described were very good at doing. But, it was the use of the AI Mk X and XV that allowed contacts to be converted into successful interceptions.

Also of note is that British nightfighter operations had an effect on the morale and efficency of German crews far out of proportion to their successes. For most of 1944 the British only had a few dozen successful interceptions. The Germans lost far more crews through inexperiance (crashes etc) and to bomber defenses than to nightfighters. But, because of this out of proportion impact the British were highly successful in reducing German efficency.

__________________
Truth is stranger than bullshit!

Exceelnt T.A. , please continue if you have more to share.....

E [img]graemlins/yellowribbon.gif[/img]