Hi
I've recently been given the flight log and papers detailing the presumed loss and then confirmation of my uncles death in 1943.
With the help of the docs and Google I have established;
He was posted to 218 squadron Downham Market in 1942, and survived only about 10 missions.
He was a gunner in a Stirling MK1 - possibly the rear gunner.
The plane failed to return from a mission to Nuremberg on the night of 25th Feb.
The plane may have come down in Mannheim or in the Rhine near the town powerstation as the towns webpage detailing the war mentions bomber wreckage and a body being found the same night at the powerstation.
My uncle's body along with the pilots and two others were found, while two more were recovered from the Rhine. The seventh is not recorded as being found.
Unfortunately I cannot find any record of that night in the german nightfighter records.
4 of the crew including my uncle are buried at Durnach Cemetery while the other 3 are recorded at Runnymede.(Athough the two drowned airmen were recorded as being buried in a local german cemetery).
I wonder if anyone can point me in the direction or refer to Chorley's BCL to find more info, such as more definate location of the crash or record of the nights flightplan.
Photos of the squadron form the spring of 1943 would be of great interest.
Perhaps someone could explain why a mission to Nuremberg- a heavily defended site - would fly over another well defended town - Mannheim.
If anyone would like the details of what I've found so far please email me.

Thanks in anticipation of some interesting replies.

Jack Tupper

3 NF claims for the night in my files.......thank you for the informative story

Oblt. Greiner of III./NJG 101 shot down a Stirling 2km south of Rastatt for his third victory at 00.44 hrs. Probably flying an old heavy Do 217N or J, will have to re-check to confirm.

E ~

I just sent you a pm. Also have you thought about googling "Ludwigshafen" , it's only a few meters from Mannheim, just opposite the Rhine?

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Information from my book says the aircraft was BF450, HA for 218 squadron and the aircraft was letter X. It was recieved by the squadron on Jan 15, 1943 and failed to return Feb. 25/26, 1943 on the mission to Nuremberg.

The Sterling was the mark I and the book says Nuremberg was beyond the range of Oboe and that H2S had not been installed yet to the Sterlings.

From Sterling at War by Michael J.F. Bowyer

I have a picture of HA C but not of HA X

I hope this is of some use to you. 218 lost lots of aircraft.

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Jack, III./NJG 101 which I have a friend that served in that unit but much later in the war, was primarily a school outfit, teaching young crews to use the most advanced radar systems the LW nf had to offer, at the time in early Feb. 43 the Gruppe had Bf 110's and Do 217's at their disposal.

NJG 101 was formed from the earlier Nachtschule 1 which had a brief history from the inception of the Luftwaffe night fighter force till 1943 when it was enlarged to gruppen size becoming NJG 101, NJG 102 another SChule unit branched off of NJG 101 and both served till wars final end. In nearly all the cases of NJG 101 pilots claiming victories in thew ar they had been used as instructors

Hi

Looking at the Lost Bombers website that looks like the demise of Stirling BF410 from 90 squadron;

Delivered to No.90 Sqdn 26Nov42. Airborne 2039 25Feb43 from Ridgewell. Caause of loss not established. Crashed 3 km S of Rastatt, 22 km SW of Karlsruhe. Those killed are buried in Durnbach War Cemetery; their average age being 22 years. Sgt Major had been detached from 1657CU for this operation. Sgt Hines was the son of Lt Walter Nathaniel Hines RN. Sgt F.J.Miles KIA Sgt W.R.Major KIA Sgt A.V.D.Hines KIA Sgt G.Pettinger KIA Sgt J.H.Dyer KIA Sgt W.H.Bevan KIA Sgt E.H.Holmes KIA Sgt J.Carrick PoW Sgt J.Carrick was interned in Camps 8B/344. PoW No.27633. "

Amazing how well the location ties up!

Jack

possibly Jack but lets remember this that positive ID from any BC aircraft as well as LW aircraft can be nigh impossible at times in the night sky. there are too many reports of 4-engines in the German LW repots without any type ID listed, also the time of the shoot down reported by the crew is just that, the time it was hit and burning, not where it crashed.

I will take the word of your statement though lostplaces uses Chorleys multi-volumes as word of fact when they should not.

the other 2 claims I mentioned are thus :

Fw. Macke no time listed, 1 Halifax near Florennes. Macke was from III./NJG 4
Uffz. Heintze from IV./NJG 5 flying Bf 110's claimed a Wellington in area unknown. at 00.10hrs

DOH!
I guess so, and even a damaged bomber could cover a fair distance in 5-10 minutes before going done.
I've looked at Tony Woods listings of LW reports and for that night only a Wellington is listed as downed yet BC list (from memory as their diary section is down) 11 aircraft failing to return of which 2 were Stirlings.


Jack

Jack you can probably add it up to unknown causes, maybe a German nf that had a duel out with another bomber but never claimed as it went down in action but there are no reports of lost NF's by the LW. Tony Woods through chatting with me has mentioned his claims listing though a labor of love lacks complete accuracy, some of the reprots he could not even read.
I knowf ull well that for a fact as I own several and they are terrible scribbles and then signed by STafflekpitän or Gruppenkommandeur so bad are the originals you cannot even tell the defending unit in some cases.

The Stirling as well could of been set alight by 8.8cm Flak and then crashed miles away.....

it is sad that we can only search with some facts that we have in our possession build up over time, maybe the Luftarchiv will help you soon enough.
sometimes a good thing and then sometimes not a word from the guys ....

E ~

Wise Words

Thanks Erich




Jack

25-26 February 1943

218 Squadron
Stirling I BF450 HA-X
Op: Nuremberg

Crew.
Sgt. R W. White +
Sgt. J C. Wade RAAF +
Sgt. G. Matthews RCAR +
Sgt. L L. Stuart +
Sgt. H V. Werner +
F/S. K I. Young RCAF +
Sgt. J W. Hearn +

The aircraft took off at 1940 hrs from Downham Market. Crashed at Rheinau 9 km SSE from the centre of Mannheim, where burials took place on 5 March. Since then four bodies have been taken to Durnvach War Cemetery, but the Runnymede Memorial bears the names of Sgt. Wade RAAF, Sgt. Stuart and Sgt. Werner.

Bomber Command Losses Volume 4. W R. Chorley.

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Thanks for looking that up; no surprises anyway

cheers

Jack

25-26 February 1943

Nuremberg

337 aircraft - 169 Lancaster's, 104 Halifaxes, 64 Stirling's. Nine aircraft -6 Lancaster's, 2 Stirling's, 1 Halifax lost.

weather conditions were poor and the Pathfinders were late with their marking. Nuremberg's report shows that the bombing fell on the norther edges of Nuremberg and on the neighbouring town of Furth and in the countryside up to 12 km further north. However, more than 300 buildings were damaged in Nuremberg, including a historic military chapel which was burnt out. 12 civilians, 1 soldier on leave and 1 prisoner of war were killed in Nuremberg; 26 people were killed in Furth and there may have been further casualties in the villages to the north.

Bomb Command War Diaries. Middlebrook - Everitt

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The Greiner claim seems pretty accurate though. Although we can not be positive, he clearly mentions the crash place place with a 2km margin. He is the best possible candidate if you ask me.

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Hi

I'm presuming you mean for the 90 Sqn Stirling ?

yes that's the one, I just realised you are actually interested in the other one. The trouble now is that several bombers all fell in the same vicinity. I was also amazed to read that several crashed due to bad weather conditions. I tmust have been a hell of a storm on top of the Flak. This also explains why there were so "few" losses due to Fighters, probably because they could either not take off , or not find the bombers.

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