Hey all i was just wondering wich came first panzerfaust or panzershrek.

Oh and also wat company made the mp40.

It would appear to have been the Panzerschreck (tank terror), also known as the Ofenrohr (stovepipe) which came first, followed by the Panzerfaust 30 in short order.

Less spectacular, but more practical, are the recoilless weapons used in antitank warfare.[1] When the Russian T-34 medium tank appeared in 1941, the Germans realized that all conventional antitank guns smaller than 75-mm in caliber would become obsolete. Already hard-pressed for artillery, the enemy simply could not produce enough heavy antitank pieces approximately the size of field guns. Therefore, when the U.S. bazooka was introduced, they promptly adapted the weapon for their own use. Then they developed their Panzerfaust series. The latest Panzerfaust, the 60, is known to have a maximum range of about 90 yards. Its folding sight, in a downward position, acts as a safety. Raised, it has three rectangular holes. When the target is aligned with a stub on the upper edge of the projectile, sighting through the lowest hole gives a 33-yard range; through the middle hole, a 66-yard range; and through the upper hole, an 88-yard range. This Panzerfaust will penetrate better than 7 inches of armor. Like all the German one-man recoilless weapons, the latest Panzerfaust fires a hollow-charge projectile. However, the Panzerfaust 60's projectile is unusual in that the head with the explosive charge may be carried separately; just before firing, the head is attached to the stick and vanes, which have been kept in the launching tube.

There are two types of German bazooka both of which the German soldiers call Ofenrohr, or "stovepipe." The newer is the 8.8-cm R. Pz. B. 54; its shield for the firer is the feature which principally distinguishes it from the earlier R. Pz. B. 43. According to the Germans, the Ofenrohr's 88-mm, 7.5-pound, hollow-charge round can achieve penetrations on any Allied armored vehicle at ranges up to 160 yards, but is not suitable for use against unarmored targets. Larger and clumsier than the U.S. bazooka, the Ofenrohr has projectile guide tubes, which wear out after about 300 rounds have been fired.

From:

Lone Sentry: Germany's Rocket and Recoilless Weapons (U.S. WWII Intelligence Bulletin, March 1945)

I believe the MP-40 series was made by a number of companies eventually, but for some reason ERMA, Erfurter Maschinenfabrik Gmbh, or Erma sticks in my mind as the original source, since I am sure they developed the MP-38. Could be as easily wrong as correct.

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Happy Trails,
Clint.

Right. Both would have started showing up in the front lines in significant numbers during the second half of 1943.

wow thanks for responce so fast.
And for great answer helps alot.

That's right, the first models known as the Panzerfaust Klein (with a small diameter bomb) and the Panzerfaust (with the 5.75in bomb) were demonstrated to the army in March 1943, and in July 3,000 of each type were ordered for active service trials in Russia. In October, as a result of these tests, mass productionwas ordered at the rate of 100,000 Kleins and 200,000 Panzerfaust 30s every month- a rate not reached until April 1944.

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"If you want peace work for justice" -Pope Paul VI

Jon

The above is wrong.

The first German antitank rocket is the RPzBGr 4212 approved for service in late 1942. This was the round fired by the Raketenwerfer 43 Puppchen. This is the small, wheeled rocket launcher that looks like a miniature artillery piece. From this weapon the RPzB 54 series with the similar RPzBGr 4322 rocket was produced. The Panzerschreck came about as the result of capture of US Bazookas that led the Germans to abandon the Puppchen in favor of the much simpler tube launcher.

The Panzerfaust first underwent development trials in March 1943 about 6 months after the Puppchen was introduced. The first trials batch of 3000 were issued in July 1943 on the East Front. So, the first issue was the forerunner of the panzerschreck, the Puppchen.

That is what I said...and actually looking at my sources I read the Panzerfaust as being developed in late 1942 and the Raketenpanzerbuchse as being developed in 1943 from Allied bazookas captured at Tunisia, so I can second that. That is from The Encycopedia of Weapons of World War II General Editor Chris Bishop.

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"If you want peace work for justice" -Pope Paul VI

Jon

Since the query was between the Panzerschreck and the Panzerfaust (both shoulder fired), I fail to see how the wheeled, miniature artillery piece of the Raketenwerfer comes into play.

Did I miss something?

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Happy Trails,
Clint.

yeah you missed something..........the real thing ~ Panzerschreck 54

enjoy gents

Attached Images

Bazooka 003.jpg (134.7 KB, 5 views)

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E ~

Where does it fall in the timeline? Is that the last version; Pz. B. 54, and if so wasn't it introduced after the first Panzerfaust?

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Happy Trails,
Clint.

54/1 was the last as it had a shorter barrel, used for clse-in and house to house .......yuk can you imagine. there is no Pz B. 54 Panzerschreck Clint, the B needs to be removed.

a good handy small softback was written by Wolfgang Fleischer called Panzerfaust. the small booklet covers the types, the Ofenrohr was a named dropped along with protective face-mask and shield promptly used ASAP. I hav emany storeis from a former freind as waffenmeister in the 1st Inf. Div in East Prussia and the useage of both systems.

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Question. I've heard different stories that the Panzerschreck was based on captured bazookas on the Eastern Front or on captured bazookas in Tunisia. Does anyone know which is true? Or both?

In 1943 numbers of American 60-mm M1 bazookas were captured in Tunisia and were rapidly examined by German technicians, who quickly appreciated that the simply and cheap construction of the rocket-launcher could be used to good advantage by the Germans themselves, and before long the first German equivalents appeared. This German launcher fired a rocket very similar to that used on the Puppchen, but was modified for electrical firing. This first German launcher was known as the 8.8-cm Raketenpanzerbuchse 43 (RPzB) and was a little more than a simple tube open at both ends, from which the rocket could be launched.

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"If you want peace work for justice" -Pope Paul VI

Jon

In terms of linage and appearance what I was conveying was that the Panzerschreck beat the Panzerfaust into operational service. By early 1943 the Panzerschreck was in production by HASAG in Meuselwitz and some of the early ones were shipped to Tunisia and used operationally there along with the few Puppchin produced.
This quick turn around to operational production was due to the simplicity of the launcher and the ready availability of a tested round for it. The Panzerfaust required a full development cycle and testing before it could become operational.

Of interest here is that the Germans adopted the US use of an electric firing circuit but went one better in using a simple magneto to generate the charge. The US then captured Panzerschrecks and saw the practicality of the magneto and adopted it on their M9 Bazooka.

Terry

Tunisia ? or do you mean the isle such as Sicily and then up Italy's butt

the first 5000 Panzerfaust Klein were delivered in august of 1943.

have yet to find a serious date of the first intro of the RKPB but in October of 43 the first Pz.Schreck 54 came into useage with protective face shield. supposed contract for 382,000 was accepted and filled by July of 44 of the RKPB but I feel this figure is way off.

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Terry Gander (no relation) in The Bazooka most of the R-werfer (aka Puppchin) produced were sent to Tunisia, Sicily or, Italy. Included is a photograph of one captured by the US in Tunisia.

THE MP40 WAS THE BRAINCHILD ON TWO MEN. BERTHOLD GEIPEL AND HEINRICH VOLLMER. BOTH OF THE ERFURTER WERKZEUG UND MASCHINENFABRIK. aka. ERMA. IT WAS PRECEDED BY M38 MACHINE PISTOL WHICH WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED BY THE ERMA-WERKE FACTORY IN ERFURT GERMANY IN THE LATE 1930'S AT THE REQUEST OF THE WEHRMACHT, IT WAS SUPPOSE TO BE FOR PANZER CREWS, AND PARATROOPERS, WHO NEEDED A SMALL COMPACT WEAPON CAPABLE OF A LOT OF FIREPOWER. THE PROTOTYPE OF THESE WEAPONS WAS THE MP36 MACHINE PISTOL. IT ALSO HAD A FOLDING STOCK, BUT UNLIKE IT BROTHERS THE MP38 AND MP40 WHICH USED A BUTTON TO LOCK AND UNLOCK THE FOLDING STOCK, THE MP36 USED FRICTION TO HOLD IT OPEN AND CLOSED, SO IT WAS NEVER REALLY LOCKED OPEN.

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In Battle there is only one thing to remember. Attack, and keep on attacking. To try to hold ground is to lose.

Please don't use all caps. It's difficult to read and considered the equivalent of shouting.

I will echo this request.

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Best Regards,
JW