didnt realize that so many Italians went over to the Allied side.



GRATEFUL

After the Italian armistice on September 3, 1943, around 100,000 Italians volunteered to help the Allied cause. After a slow transition period, from being a defeated enemy to being a willing ally, some 150 Italians actually enlisted in the US Army landing force at Anzio as ammunition carriers and interpreters. On April 18, the Italian Liberation Corps was formed. Consisting of 25,000 men, the Corps occupied such important towns as Chieti, L'Aquila, Teramo and Ascoli Piceno. The eastern side of the Italian Peninsula, including cities such as Bologna and Venice, were freed by Italian troops under Allied command. On October 13, 1943, Italy declared war on Germany.

About 600,000 disbanded Italian soldiers from the German occupied north of Italy were crammed into cattle cars and transported to Germany for forced slave labour. In 1944, the Italian Co-belligerant Air Force was formed and equipped with US and British-built planes. Its primary function was to support the Italian troops fighting in Greece and Yugoslavia and to attack German ships sailing in the eastern Mediterranean Sea.

By April, 1945, around one million Italian soldiers, sailors, airmen and partisans were taking a direct role in the Allied war effort. Around 480,000 Italians died from all causes during the war.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/1943.html#lesser_known_1943
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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Thousands of Italian POWs also worked in agriculture in Britain from 1941 onwards. They were originally brought in small numbers to both help free up manpower for the harvests and reduce the security risk for the 8th Army in North Africa, but proved so adept that they were brought over in ever increasing numbers.
Only other ranks and those classified as anti-fascist were allowed to volunteer. Under the Geneva Convention officers couldn't be forced to work.
The POWs were only allowed to work in sectors not directly related to the war effort.
Two new problems were created by the Italian armistice in September 1943; the Allies couldn't allow prisoners from North Italy to be repatriated, since the area was still German-held. This resulted in a major block in numbers being released. And the Allies would only allow ex-POWs to be reclassified as 'co-belligerents', which created friction with the new Italian government.

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Regards,
Gordon
Scotland's Prisoners
www.spanglefish.com/scotlandsprisoners
FortressScotland-http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/Historian/

From what I have read some of the Units of Italians performed quite well under the Allies.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

From what I know, the commander of this italian corps was Generale di Corpo d'Armata Giuseppe De Stefanis, former commander of Ariete armoured division during the Gazala push in 1942 and then commander of XX Corpo d'Armata.

He was one of the best italian field commanders.

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"The Duce will have Ethiopia. With or without the ethiopians." Rodolfo Graziani

www.saladeguerra.net

Thanks for telling, this deserves to be known more widely, especially the figures. These men have always been misunderstood as they were still considered as vanquished enemies by many allied soldiers. Maybe one of the reasons they gave up fighting for the Axis in the first place was because their heart had been on the allied side from the start.

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I wholeheartedly see it that way too. It does seem that many Italians didn't really have a heart to take Hitler's side in the first place.

I tend to agree with you. Actually, Italy became isollated in the continent after it's conquest of Ethiopia in 1936. Britain and France didn't want to make any more agreements with Mussolini, and the only alternative left was Hitler.

Don't forget what happened after the assassination of Engelbert Dollfuss in 1934. Italy sent troops to the austrian border, and Hitler became very fearful of their reaction, thus abandoning the nazi conspirators in Austria.

The situation during the Anschluss in 1938 is quite the opposite, with Mussolini (already an "ally" of Germany) complying with the nazi invasion. A thankful Hitler said to Mussolini "I'll never forget this, never!" He didn't forgot for sure, as Operation Oak can tell.

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"The Duce will have Ethiopia. With or without the ethiopians." Rodolfo Graziani

www.saladeguerra.net

Have a read of this to see how the Italian Units in the Allied Army played their part in April 1945.
Look for Cremona Group, Fruili Group & Folgore Group.
The Capture of Imola - April 9-21, 1945

See also
Italian Co-Belligerent Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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The italian weren't bad but this wasn't sufficient to be recocgnize as a victor.

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Well, they did want to help more, but were denied by Eisenhower.

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"The Duce will have Ethiopia. With or without the ethiopians." Rodolfo Graziani

www.saladeguerra.net

the problem was that the italian front lost much of its importance in 1944 after June.

Free france continued war after 1940. It took them nearly four years to have 450,000 fighting france soldiers and 175,000 FFI and nearly five years to have 1,300 000 new french army soldiers and many were untrained. And Italy had lesser manpowe ( 70 millions people in french territories, metropolitan and oversea, less for italy ) and less time.

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-Hmmm, failed in Greece, causing Barbarosa to be 6 weeks late
-could not hold the flank at Stalingrad...
-delayed invasion in Malta, and such aircraft sent there after prevented this henceforth
-lost naval advantage in the mediterrannean because of malta
-became an ally of Germany in June 0f '40 after the cow was milked in europe

Italy was opposed to German expansion into Austria , and moved troops ready to declare war, but because of the German-Anglo naval pact was signed by Britian...France and Italy where opposed so in reprisal, Italy allowed Germany a free hand in Austria...and Germany was the only country in the league of nations not to oppose Italy's entering Abbasinia led to an increasing friendship..

Welcome to the Forums.But all you have mentioned was before 1943. We were discussing the Italians as Allies after 1943.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

As was I...because of there failures, they where a bigger alli, when still fighting with Germany, then any assistance they provided afterwards....Their blunders where more of an asset, they their taking arms up with allied forces...

bf109 Emil

That's just too simplistic, don't you think? These kind of statements are pretty shallow, and looks like they all come from british literature. To be really short, I'll say:

-Marita was defensive operation. Hitler wanted to clear his south flank from the british before going into Russia. And there's more: the REAL cause of the delay was the invasion of Yugoslavia, which had nothing to do with the italians.

-At Stalingrad, NO ONE could hold the flank, not just the italians. And the main attack of Operation Saturn was made against the romenian sector of the over-stretched front. Troops with no tanks or antitank weapons against a full armored soviet attack force in freezing temperatures... geez, that doesn't sound too good, does it?

-(this one corresponds to the three following statements)The non-capture of Malta was due to lack of planning to do so, it's nothing related to cowardice of stupidity. Mussolini's bet when he entered the war in June, 1940, was to win without having to compromise himself with many real actions. Noble? Sure not. Smart? If Britain surrendered that summer, the world today would look at Mussolini as a top player of politics.

Your last paragraph is a little distorted too. In 1934 Italy supported the political movement called Austrofascism, headed by Engelbert Dollfuss. This movement had previously disbanded the nazi and communist parties in Austria, and when Dollfuss was murdered by nazi conspirators, Mussolini instantly put his troops in the border, ready to take action and maintain the government in place. Hitler (with Germany still weak) made a smart move and left the conspirators to their own luck.

The situation changed during the Anschluss in 1938 because Italy had been isolated by France and England after Abissinia, and Germany was the only regional power to offer an alliance to the italians, so they took it.

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"The Duce will have Ethiopia. With or without the ethiopians." Rodolfo Graziani

www.saladeguerra.net

...why where the British on the south flank????

-Feb 1941 Greece allows a BEF to help fight the Italians...
-1941 Prince Paul of Yugoslavia resists Hitler demands because he is married to a Greek wife and had no desire to let Hitler help the Italians fight in Greece...
-in march with German armies threatening Yugoslavia from Hungary, Bulgaria, and Romania, , the Yugosalvs sign an agreement
-Serbs are opposed to this, and British secret agents help organize a demonstration on the night of March 26/27
-Hitler is so furious as to being betrayed by a treasonist act he demands Yugoslavia to be destroyed...
-Because the BEF has entered and occupied Greece...ONLY BECQAUSE OF GREECES RELUCTANCY TO ALLOW THIS TO FIGHT THE ITALIANS... Germany turns to help her neighbor from the bloody nose she has received...
-in may Crete is taken to thwart the British build-up, as well as eliminate the threat of having to resupply Greece in order to fight the British, etc....was Barbarosa late...
-because Luftwaffe enigma was read, defenses for Student paratroop barrage resulted in the 8500 men...3764 killed, 2494 wounded, and the loss...and the numerous losses of JU52 ensure no further airdrops throughout the war by Student and his elite group...
-Now you state Germany had to clear is south flank...I ask you why where the British on this flank, and if their was no Italian hostilities with Greece, the threat of Britian being their would not have needed this delay...as Greece only allowed britian to aid after being attack by Italy...and as for Yugoslavia,,,i fail to remember the British having a BEF their...and with Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria as a buffer, i think the threat from the 6 nationalities that made up Yugoslavia, and their constant quarrels with each other wouldn't have resulted in a threat or possibility of aid to the Russians...

Italy attacked Greece on the forbidden wishes and there-after gloated to Hitler about this...Hitler never let his ally know of his attacks on Russia, until after starting on June 22 1941..

bf109 Emil...

ps i hope this adds some depth to the shallowness as you stated

Bumpers LOL

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I see a bit of sarcasm. This thread speaks about the italian volunteers who fought spontaneously on the allies' side.
Italian Pows... let's remind that the british wouldn't have had a good destiny without the massive allies' support.

I don't see any sarcasm at all in the post quoted, but perhaps I'm biased.

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I have to agree there Za. But I guess we will have to wait to see if he comes back after being "In the Cooler" to point it out.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

Only because they used our weapons.

Do you mean the Axis guns went Bing while the Allies' went Bang? Was that what made the difference?

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When you think about it, the Italians are very smart race.
When they realized that the germans were losing power they quickly sided with the Allies. Very smart thinking by the Italians. The germans think there the super race, but i think the Italians were more super back then.

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VICTORY IN SPITE OF ALL TERROR

Jeez. . Like weapons made the only difference in fighting. I guess that the motivations like morale,better rations,leadership and fighting for the right side and government had nothing to do with it. The partisans and some of the troops fighting with the Allies were still using thier own weapons not weapons provided by the Allies. When properly motivated and lead and fighting alongside troops from other armies,both Axis and Allied,they showed they could do quite well.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

One difference between pre and post 8/9/1943 Italian troops is that the first were mostly conscripts, the second volunteers. When it comes to motivation that's a huge difference.