I was watching a show called "Hitlers War: The Battle of Monte Cassino" or something along those lines last night. I will admit I was also watching something else at the time, flipping back and forth between the channels during commercial breaks on the Cassino one.

Anyways, something I did not know was mentioned: There were no Germans in the Abbey.

Apparently a few things had been promised to the Pope: That the Allies would not destroy the Abbey, and the Germans would not occupy the Abbey - both to preserve a historical site.

The Allies thought the Germans were in the Abbey due to the precision artillery strikes by the Germans that destroyed anything that moved in and around the town of Monte Cassino.

Could the Germans have been on the grounds of the Abbey? It is a mountain, afterall, and there could be any number of places that they had an artillery spotter. While the Abbey would provide a comfortable vantage point, it was also clearly a target. Why not hide in some bushes or just below a ridge line?

I also never heard an explanation for the Germans precise bombings when the Allies moved - is it possible that they did (in secret) use the Abbey, or were more likely hiding on a ridgeline calling in artillery?

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I also saw the same show and it did mention that the Germans were 300 yards away from the abbey. Also, the Germans did not need to be in the abbey to overlook the valley. Both an Italian officer and the Abbey's Abbot have stated that there were no Germans on the grounds.

Of all the books I have read, not one mentions the Germans being on the Abbey's grounds. So I believe that they were not. The Germans also would have been better off not being in the abbey. It would have been more difficult to locate their observation post rather than in an obvious place like the abbey.

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My thoughts exactly.

I thought it was interesting that the Americans didn't attack immediately following the bombing run on the Abbey. It seems rather odd that they would wait a few days before attacking, which allowed the Germans to move in and use the rubble as excellent cover to fire from. I believe it stated the fighting lasted another 3 months after the bombing of the Abbey?

It seems like Monte Cassino was a big SNAFU for the Allies.

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Agreed. I believe the documentry stated that the allies did not attack for another 3 days. Plenty of time for the Germans to set up a solid defense.

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Look at the person running the operation, General Mark Clark. Anzio, Salerno, The Abby bombing, the Rapido.........

You'll notice a pattern of failures with blame on other Generals. Walker, Lucas, Dawley. Feiberg, all hung out to dry by Clark AFTER his failures.

Best Regards,

the Fallschirmtruppen were lying in wait in caves and specially dug out positions at the Abbeys base so recon - observation was easy enough from the high vantage point.

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i disagree,the old monk in the documentary on t.v,just happened to be,yes you guessed it,an ex german paratrooper.they would never use the abbey would they?,cheers.

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"I never knew Canadians were as clever as that?".thankyou all,4th wilts.

personally they would be silly not to use the ruins for a clear fire vantage point, we know full well from documentation they did hide out in the stronger based walls whether standing or knocked about being well protected by it's thickness. in all the hullabaloo who really cares, the abbey was plastered from top to bottom and made it just that much harder for Allied forces to enter, let alone easier for the LW Fallshirm's to escape when they had to

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If you ever visited the place you would realize that the few additional feet of elevation the building would give you are not worth the risk of placing yourself in both a limited exits trap and a potential shell magnet. There are plenty of other good observations points nearby that overlook the valley below.
Monastery hill is also by far not the tallest peak in the neighbourhood so the Germans had no real reason to break the Hague convention and, as far as I know, now even official US history admits none were present in the abbey before the bombing.

One of the monks they interviewed was a German Fallshirmjager but the Abbot who said there were no Germans in the Abbey was not German.

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Yes - I have been there myself (one of the shots in that show was almost identical to a picture I had taken). The slopes immediately in front of the Abbey are extremely steep - the road there is a few switchbacks. I would imagine the Germans would have been better off further up the Mountain, above/behind the Abbey - they would have still gotten an excellent view of the area.

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It is "interesting" to notice how the idea of bombing everything to pieces seems like the greatest idea to allow your troops to advance BUT

1. It either gives the enemy the ruins which are easier to defend ( for example Cassino,Stalingrad )

2. the bombing craters stop your tanks and vehicles from moving ahead fast enough ( for example Goodwood )

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i understood the main problems encountered at the start of goodwood were mines laid out by 51 div,and also trying to squeeze 3 armd divs across the orne,resulting in a tailback.but it still succeeded in pulling the majority of the ss panzer and panzer divs onto the 2nd army front,just before cobra kicked off.cheers.

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"I never knew Canadians were as clever as that?".thankyou all,4th wilts.

musso,i never knew twas the americans who attacked the monistary,after it was blown to bits,i thought twas freybergs n.z corps?.cheers.

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"I never knew Canadians were as clever as that?".thankyou all,4th wilts.

Nope, I am pretty sure they all had a go at it after the Abbey was destroyed. The NZ General was the one who convinced them all to blow it to pieces, but everyone had a go at it which is why the Poles were the ones to finally take it.

Thats my other question - why did the Germans Retreat from their positions? It seemed like they were clearly holding their own, then they upped and left overnight.

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I think this was one of the reasons why the Germans retreated, but not sure....

Cassino and Mt Maio ( Aurunci mountains )

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The LW Fallshirms had a great view of the surrounding hills and could see well enough they were losing ground and in time would be surrounded. Kesselring I believe withdrew his prized truppen to the rearward lines to have it bolstered and to take on the Allied onslaught

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i think some moroccan mountain troops were flanking them .cheers.

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"I never knew Canadians were as clever as that?".thankyou all,4th wilts.

I believe they retreated because the units around them were withdrawing

It was the New Zealanders who failed to follow up with an assault into the town (2nd battle of Cassino). They failed because of the requirement to keep the troops well back from the bomb line ('Blue on Blue' incidents being commonplace with UAAF Tac Air support). Also, 4th Indian Div wasn't alerted in time, and was unable to issue orders to units to conform to the movements of NZ troops.
Once again, inadaquate time given for orders to 'percolate' down to sub units.

Yep. It was us Kiwi's who drove the process resulting in the Abbey being bombed. I was in Cassino last year - the Italians didn't let me forget the fact....

The NZ Div represented a HUGE contribution in per capita population terms. They had already fought in Greece, Crete, the Desert campaign, Tunisia and taken heavy casualties. They were having major difficulties in getting manpower replacements from NZ (3 NZ Div in the Pacific being de-activated to act as a replacement resource for 2 NZ Div in Italy).

Freyberg was not going to accept a large Butchers Bill in return for preserving a historic building.

P.S We also bombed all 27 villages in the area immediately surrounding Cassino.

BTW, I recall having read that there was at least at one point a sign saying " No dogs or Americans!" Wonder if it still was there? or ever was?

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It was the senior commanders of 4th Indian division who were going to attack up the hill who first mooted the idea of bombing the abbey not Freyberg and Mark Clark out ranked Freyberg as did General Alexander they could have said no and they didn,t.

All the allied Generals were responsible.

The New Zealand Division followed up the attack but only with one Battalion the 25th they sent 1 company up to capture Castle Hill and the other three into the town but they had no tank support because of the bombing and managed to get through the town as far as the Continental Hotel then bogged down.

The attack wasn,t followed up because the Divisional commander Ike Parkinson simply didn,t follow the plan which was to hit the Germans with a massive blow then pour 6th Brigade into the town as quickly as they could be sent down the roads he simply didn,t do it.

One company of the 24th was sent at around 5 o,clock hours after the bombing and the 26th wasn,t ordered to move until after dark,Parkinsons background was in artillary and had never commanded a division before and didn,t show much as a brigade commander when in charge of 6th brigade and Ian Bonifant who was in charge of 6th brigade had never commanded a brigade before he came from the divisional cavalry.

They simply didn,t carry out the plan that they had been given and the former Divisional commander Howard Kippenberger was furious about it and said after the war that it was going to be hard for us to write our own history of the battle because it was so badly managed.