IF, that 1957 Knights Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords ends up mine? I have it narrowed down to 15 names of who could have worn this set up. I can't prove anything but, the set im going for was a worn set, so in all probability, these COULD have been worn by one of the following:

Gerhard Barkhorn Luftwaffe.
Wilhelm Batz Luftwaffe.
Erich Alfred Hartmann Luftwaffe.
Arthur Juttner Army.
Otto Kretschmer Kriegsmarine.
Hans Kroh. Luftwaffe.
Friedrich Lang Luftwaffe.
Smilo Frhr. von Luttwitz. Army.
Horst Niemack Luftwaffe.
Gunther Rall Luftwaffe.
Ernst-Wilhlem Reinert. Luftwaffe.
Johannes "Macky" Steinhoff. Luftwaffe.
Werner Streib Luftwaffe.
Erich Topp Kriegsmarine.
Werner Ziegler. Army.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

All the best of luck, Carl! That would make your day for sure!!!!

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Thank you Kai, im still eagerly awaiting word on these ;-))

Also, as far as I can tell, the only man who was an RKT and a General during WWII to serve in the Bundeswehr, was Generalleutnant Smilo Freiherr von Luttwitz. I know that Erich Topp had retired as an Admiral, and suppose that a couple more of these men might also have retired at a Generals or Admirals rank. I think if I recall, that Steinhof did ;-)) I'd sure love it for these to have belonged either to him, Topp, Hartmann ot von Luttwitz-well ANY of them for tha matter? but especially to any of these four Gents ;-))

Im leaving this unchanged (above) about thinking there was only one WWII General with RK to serve in the BW. I found another this afternoon who was an Oaks Recipeint. So, what I will change about Smilo-is that he was the ONLY WWII General with the Oaks and Swords-to serve in the Bundeswehr. Im not done going through all the Oaks guys yet so, there might be more than one who was a WWII General and to be one in the BW. I haven't got started yet to see how many WWII Gens served in the BW who only got the KC. I will have time to check that coming sometime soon. Anyway, ill post the "new finds" name as soon as I can have access to my notes made about this just this afternoon.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I hope the name you want goes with the award Carl.
Best of luck from me too!
best regards John

Carl post a little after war expertise here if you would the 57er was awarded to the already bestowed recipients in the Wehrmacht during ww 2 correct and what of it's reflection on the after thew ar winners serving Germany, this wasn't a no-no then ?

I almost find it strange that a copy or re-do of the WW 2 award was presented

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E ~

Hi John, E,

John, thank you very much ;-)) and me too ;-)) This deal still isn't secure yet because I have not heard back from the guy. I was told he was out of town-but I don't know how long? Anyway, I HOPE he doesn't forget about my stuff that he is interested in? otherwise, ill have to seek another and probably much more expensive source-for one of these same set-ups.

Hi E, I don't know where I got this from? but from what I read-the German Govt offered to give a onetime free exchange for their wartime awards for the cheaper uglier-looking 1957 stuff. Some Germans did take them up on the offer and when these awards were exchanged, I have been told that the wartime examples were destroyed. This pertained to any and all RKT (and non RKTs for that matter) whether they went into the Bundeswehr or not? An RKT who didn't turn in his wartime awards for exchange-had to pay for his 1957 versions.

The 1957 examples were worn just like the 1939 examples were-meaning where ever the soldier went-or if the person did not join the BW and he wore his stuff at parties and gatherings and such. Also, something I found out on another site, apparently the soldier or Veteran could indeed wear their wartime issued awards after the war but only on some special occasion, that it was allowed. What that occasion is? I don't know?

Here is a tidbit on Remy. Remy never turned in his wartime awards (thankfully) as he felt that that was a slap in the face and the wartime awards were much more special to him than any mere replacements. Also, he sorta got into trouble with the OdR when he wore his wartime awards to OdR gatherings. Remy refused to wear the 1957 stuff which he called-Crap-and felt that as he earned the wartime pieces, he felt that he should be able to wear his wartime pieces. Because of someone having an appeplexy about the 1939 pieces-he quit attending OdR meetings.

Because of the stupid law imposed on Germany by the Allies that the swaz couldn't be shown in public, was one of the reasons why they came out with the 57 design. Had I been a German WWII Vet, not being allowed to wear what I earned would be a kick to the groin, punch to the belly and an uppercut-of an insult.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Hi E, I remember the sources I got some of this info from. One being from a translated letter from GenAdm Donitz (not to me) and also from Walther-Peer Fellgiebel.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

C.Evans-

Why do you feel that the baning of the swastika was "stupid"?
Rich

I think it's stupid because reguardless of what side they were one, those men earned those medals, and should be able to wear them when they feel like it.

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Kicking up dust since 1978

Hi Rich, Luke said it better than I could. If a Soldier won whatever awards from whatever war he was in, he should be allowed to wear them when and where he so deems. For instance, wouldn't it have been stupid if the Powers-that-be- in the 3rd Reich decided that the Gents who also served in The Great War, couldn't wear their Imperial awards along with the ones they earned during WWII. If that was the case, (too many of course to mention but here are a few examples) Rommel, goring, F. Christiansen etc-couldn't have worn their Pour leMe Rites as they did in WWII. Rommel in fact took great pains to make sure his PlM had a prominent place in front of the Knights Cross. However, in many pics you see the KC in front of his PlM.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Good Evening-

So what you are saying is that someone like Sepp Dietrich should have the right to continue to wear his period awards even after he was involved with the Malmedy massacre? I understand what you are saying in that I have had the great honor of meeting with various TR vets. These men served their country and should be proud of their service. The problem lies with the political fall-out of the Third Reich and what the NSDAP represented. Simply removing the Hakenkreuz should not in my opinion degrade the award that was bestowed upon the recipiant...it is simply a direct result of the de-nazification process. Many of these military men claimed late and after the war that they were not fighting for Hitler or the Nazi's but for Germany and it's people. If this is true then there should be no issue with removing the Hakenkreuz. I feel that you are only looking at this issue as a collector of TR militaria, one should not be so myopic when discussing such a large sociological issue.
Rich

Oh please, explain to me how Dietrich was 'involved' in the malmedy massacre. Carl's opinions are his own and why should he bow down to what you believe in light of your ignorance of WWII history? I suggest getting educated prior to opening thy mouth.

Good luck Carl and let us know how it turns out.

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Better get your hammer and chisel out and head to Italy and remove all the Swastikas from the Mausoleums and Tombs there then - better de-nazifiy all of Europe!

(Just to point out how absurd it is to eliminate something that only got a bad name due the Nazis.)

I'm with C.Evans on this - I think they should have been allowed to wear their medals with out needing to modify them...I think it draws more attention to the issue eliminating the swastika.

Anyways, did you get it yet?

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..............that is the largest applause I could find

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"It's only the internet"- Adam Von Poop

WOW! I guess this isn't a discussion forum. I asked a simple question and I get attacked by you. Now you know why your hobby is viewed poorly in the community and you will be relegated to the VFW halls and smokey dimly lite bingo halls.

Seems to be a lot of "appologists" here blinded by their passion for collecting TR era military items. I thought this forum was for debate but it seems to be another "good old boys network".

And as to Dietrich, he was found guilty in a US Military Tirbunal and was sentenced to life in prision in the Malmedy massacre. Granted he was later released but was arrested again and charged with crimes during the "night of long knives". Spare me the military hero crap, he was an out and out war criminal...thats what happens when you lose the war remember? You think that Hitler would have allowed the Union Jack to fly high over London if he had succeded?
Rich

Feel free to jump in the pool and take a piss.

You need to be able to present your views in a non confrontational manner.

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"It's only the internet"- Adam Von Poop

hmmmmmmmmmm actually for historical purpose's the collecting community has grown here as well as all over the world. Dieing out it has not.

will agree that Diet. was a Dik-wad and deserved his fate but that is beside the point from the original posters posting. this was about the 57'er RK winners in general and the posting of this award to previous RK awardee's.

so lets get back aboard on that shall we ~

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E ~

Destroying historical items , whether they belonged to an evil regime or not, is like burning books and those who commit such vandalism are therefore as dumb as the book burning Nazis were. They are like the Taliban destroying Budha statues: it is destroying our heritage. By doing this it encourages the future generations to forget and this is how history might repeat itself. Just my 2cts...

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Thank you Ike, Musso, Brad, E, (Brad, I have to owe you a salute as I don't think it took?)

Hi Collector, Ill skip anything about Dietrich because this isn't about him but, would be willing to talk about him in a seperate thread.

Im not sure really how to answer your question about this? except to say that place yourself into the shoes of those WWII German Vets that you have met. How would you feel if you saw service in WWII, and earned various awards-w/ swastika notwithstanding, and you earned those awards by doing terriffic deeds with great danger to losing your life-or limbs in the least, and then just because your Country lost the war and the Victors imposed various laws and editcts and such, and that it was illegal for you to wear your hard earned awards. To me, that would be a continuous slap in the face--especially if I had ben one of the many who served with honor.

True, Sepp Dietrich was a Pig, in every sense of the word but, like it or not? he was lmore loyal to his men, than to the nazi party. Read the book: Hitlers Gladiator, and you will get a good sense of what im talking about. I also thank Ike for steering me to this book.

Nobody is attacking you on this but-like me-I was wondering just how this applies to the possibility of my getting the 1957 version of a Knights Cross w/ Oak Leaves and Swords with that of the some 15 names I already listed that this actual set up could have been worn by. I admit I made a mistake when I included Erich Alfred "Bubi" Hartmanns name to this list. His name should actually be left off the list because of the fact that he is a recipient of the Diamonds as well and would have worn the appropriate set-up thusly.

If you would kindly check all of the names listed above, you will see that only ONE of them had ever belonged to the nazi party and he in fact, upon joining the Kriegsmarine, was forced to give up his membership with said party.

All the men listed above, served honorably. Read the Raymond Tolliver book: The Blond Knight of Germany-which is about Erich Hartmann, and you will also see that due to his service in the Bundeswehr, that he also was sent to visiting posts here in the United States. Erich Hartmann spent a lot of time teaching, giving lectures and making official visits here in the USA as a guest of the United States Air Force. I know he is honored at the USAF Academy in Colorado and has a special place of honor there. IF Erich Hartmann was a bad guy? he certainly would not have recieved such honors and would not have spent as much time here-if any? in the USA. The man was revered as a brother aviator.

As a person who met various WWII German Vets (I flat out refuse to apply the term: "third reich vets as that has a negative connotation towards these men who do not deserve it" you should know all too well, that the vast majority of these men, merely did their service for their Country-NOT for the nazi party. If you have ever spoken with any at length, you wil see that these men-as the warraged on, were not serving Hitler, but were serving for each other.

I have personally seen on numerous occasions, at just how the Germans were towards each other as well as how they feel about their Brothers (of today) in Arms. For example, I have never witnessed by poeople from other COuntres, the exact kind of Comradship the Germans feeel about each other and as they feel about their International Brothers in Arms.

I saw it first hand when I met some 10 U 181 Vets at their 9th Reunion which was held in Bad Camberg on Sept 15-16th 2000. My friend Susanne, and I were both Guests of Honor at their Staumtisch and I was given place of honor at the head of their table. When Ivisited my friend Remy Schrijnen at his home in Hagen just a couple days later, I again witnessed the type of Comradship that these men felt towards each other. Several days after my 12 hour stay with Remy, Susanne and I met Horst Bredow in his privately ran Uboat museum in Altenbruch. He was the only survivor from his Uboat because he had been taken off just before the patrol they went on where they were killed, because on board, they had no ability to fix his problem--which was that he needed a tooth pulled. Having a bad tooth-saved this mans life.

While Susanne andI were in Altenbruch for those three days and two nights, we again mat about another 40 or so WWII Uboat Vets who were touring Bredows Archiv. I yet, once again, witnessed something that I never have seen even when mixing it up with WWII American Vets-that "special" comradship that you can only witness, when being in the midst of so many WWII German Veterans.

We were next very ucky to meet more WWII Uboat Vets when we visited Bremerhaven. I met several of the vets who served on U 2540 aka Wilhelm Bauer. After that, I met more Uboat vets when we visited U 995 Dr Hans Georg Hess's boat, which is a type VII-C-and the only one in existtance--at Laboe. We had just missed Dr. Hess by a mere few minutes but we did get to meet a few of the men who served with him. After tat, we met more WWII Vets at the Marine Memorial not far from U 995, and then again when we visited the Uboat Memorial at Moltenort-located about 2 miles away.

More unexpected Vet meetings was when we had just registered at Forsthaus Graseck in Oberammergau. We accidntly "bumped" into a famed WWII Gebirgsjager RKT- Michael Possinger-who just happened to be staying there as well. That evening, we ate supper with him there.

I knwo im ramblin on but, im doing so for a purpose, and that purpose is to get you to see things the way we do-which has nothing to do with honoring the nazi party nor that of the symbol of the swastika.

If im not clear on something? please feel free to ask me-which is what this place is for ;-))

Take care and best regards--Carl.

PS, for Erich and those interested? ill be completing the Oaks checking hopefully later this afternoon. Im doing that because I do have a line on a KC with Oaks as well.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

This is Carl at his best, don't you ever change you old Texan!

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Carl, a good, thoughtful, reasoned reply to what could have become a flame war. Thanks for taking the high road.

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"Faint heart never won fair maiden", so I say "Go for it!"

Lou

This has nothing to do with Dietrich, just pointing out someone elses 'myopic' view, historical ignorance and biting comments.

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Cheers Skipper, Lou, Ike--thank you as well gents ;-)) I hope the Gent above will be able to see things as we can here. I mean, that I also do personally feel he is in error about why we like this kind of history as well as those of us who like to collect things to preserve.

I do find it a bit sad that everything is just lumped in to one huge undistinguished pile. I sure wish what he said about collecting militaria was true? because prices would be much cheaper and more items would be easier to get ;-)) As for it dying out---that aint ever going to happen? or at least in my lifetime ;-))

Oh and, whn I get back from my Drs appointments tomorrow--ill post a few more tidbits of info I ound today on WWII Generals who were award the RK++ who also served in teh Bundeswehr. I found some more names to those who got the Oaks, and I still need to go through the name sof those who only got the KC. ;-))

Take care Gents--C.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I totally agree Carl. This is an excellent topic and can't wait for that info on the Bundeswehr generals.

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Hi Ike, thank you and i'll be posting more of them this afternoon. Also, will be starting research for the RK only Generals this afternoon. This has me wondering at how many other non RKT WWII Generals and Admirals also served in the BW? I MIGHT be able to get that info from a good friend of mine in London? ;-))

Now im beginning to wish that I had not thrown away a book of sorts that was about the Bundeswehr and it's unit strengths as of the 1990s. It could have given me an general idea on how many General rank officers served. I chucked that book slightly before moving from Corpus Christi

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.