If interested--here they are:

1) 9/17/1916. AC FE2B Nr 11 Sq. Crew: Lionel Morris & Tom Rees.

2) 9/23/1916. AC Martinshyde G.100 Nr 27 Sq. Crew: Herbert Bellerby.

3) 9/30/1916. AC FE2B Nr 11 Sq. Crew: Ernest Lansdale & Albert Clarkson.

4) 10/7/1916. AC BE12 Nr 21 Sq. Crew: William Fenwick.

5) 10/16/1916. AC BE12 Nr 19 Sq. Crew: John Thompson.

6) 10/25/1916. AC BE12 Nr 21 Sq. Crew: Arthur Fisher.

7) 11/3/1916. AC FE2B Nr 18 Sq. Crew: Cuthbert Baldwin & George Bentham.

8) 11/9/1915. AC BE2C Nr 12 Sq. Crew: John or Ian Cameron.

9) 11/20/1916. AC BE2C Nr 15 Sq. Crew: Thomas Clarke & James Lees.

10) 11/20/1916. AC FE2B Nr 18 Sq. Crew: Gilbert Hall & George Doughty.

11) 11/23/1916. AC DH2 Nr 24 Sq. Crew: Lanoe Hawker.

12) 12/11/1916. AC DH2 Nr 32 Sq. Crew: Benedict Hunt.

13) 12/20/1916. AC DH2 Nr 29 Sq. Crew: Arthur Knight.

14) 12/20/1916. AC FE2B Nr. 18 Sq. Crew: Lionel D'Arcy & Reginald Whiteside.

15) 12/27/1916. AC DH2 Nr 29 Sq. Crew: James McCudden.

16) 1/4/1917. AC Sopwith Pup Nr 8 Sq. Crew: Allan Todd.

17) 1/23/1917. AC FE8 Nr 40 Sq. Crew: John Hay.

18) 1/24/1917. AC FE2b Nr 25 Sq. Crew: John MacLennen & Oscar Greig.

19) 2/1/1917. AC BE2d Nr 16 Sq. Crew: Percival Murray & Duncan McRae.

20) 2/14/1917. AC BE2D Nr 2 Sq. Crew: Cyril Bennett & Herbert Croft.

21) 2/14/1917. AC BE2C Nr 2 Sq. Crew: George Bailey & George Hampton.

22) 3/4/1917. AC BE2D Nr 2 Sq. Crew: James Crosbee & John Prance.

23) 3/4/1917. AC Sopwith Nr ? Sq. Crew: Herbert Green & Alexander Reid.

24) 3/6/1917. AC BE2E Nr 16 Sq. Crew: Gerald Gosset-Bibby & Geoffrey Brichta.

25) 3/9/1917. AC DH2 Nr 29 Sq. Crew: Arthur Pearson.

26) 3/11/1917. AC BE2D Nr 2 Sq. Crew: James Smyth & Edward Byrne.

27) 3/17/1917. AC FE2B Nr 25 Sq. Crew: Arthur Boultbee & Frederick King.

28) 3/17/1917. AC BE2G Nr 16 Sq. Crew: George Watt & Ernest Howlett.

29) 3/21/1917. AC BE2F Nr 16 Sq. Crew: Sidney Quicke & William Lidsey.

30) 3/24/1917. AC Spad S VII Nr 19 Sq. Crew: Richard Baker.

31) 3/25/1917. AC Nieuport XVII Nr 29 Sq. Crew: Christopher Gilbert.

32) 4/2/1917. AC BE2D Nr 13 Sq. Crew: Patrick Powell & Percy Bonner.

33) 4/2/1917. AC Sopwith Nr 43 Sq. Crew: Algernon Warren & Reuel Dunn.

34) 4/3/1917. AC FE2D Nr 25 Sq. Crew: Donald McDonald & John O'Beirne.

35) 4/5/1917. AC BF2A Nr 48 Sq. Crew: Arthur Lechler & Herbert George.

36) 4/5/1917. AC BF2A Nr 48 Sq. Crew: Alfred Adams & Donald Stewart.

37) 4/7/1917. AC Nieuport XVII Nr 60 Sq. Crew: George Smart.

38) 4/8/1917. AC Sopwith Nr 43 Sq. Crew: Leonard Cantle & John Heagerty.

39) 4/8/1917. AC BE2G Nr 16 Sq. Crew: Keith MacKenzie & Guy Everingham.

40) 4/11/1917. AC BE2C Nr 13 Sq. Crew: Edward Derwin & H. Pierson.

41) 4/13/1917. AC RE8 Nr 59 Sq. Crew: James Stuart & Maurice Wood.

42) 4/13/1917. AC FE2B Nr 11 Sq. Crew: James Cunnliffe.

43) 4/13/1917. AC FE2B Nr 25 Sq. Crew: Allan Bates & William Barnes.

44) 4/14/1917. AC Nieuport XVII Nr 60 Sq. Crew: William Russell.

45) 4/16/1917. AC BE2E Nr 13 Sq. Crew: Alphonso Pascoe & Frederick Andrews.

46) 4/22/1917. AC FE2B Nr 11 Sq. Crew: Waldemar Franklin & William Fletcher.

47) 4/23/1917. AC BE2F Nr 16 Sq. Crew: Eric Welch & Amos Tollervey.

48) 4/28/1917. AC BE2E Nr 13 Sq. Crew: Reginald Follit & Frederick Kirkham.

49) 4/29/1917. AC Spad VII Nr 19 Sq. Crew: Richard Applin.

50) 4/29/1917. AC FE2D Nr 18 Sq. Crew: George Stead & Alfred Beebee.

51) 4/29/1917. AC BE2E Nr 12 Sq. Crew: David Davies & George Rathbone.

52) 4/29/1917. AC Sopwith Triplane Nr 8 Sq. Crew: Albert Cuzner.

53) 6/18/1917. AC RE8 Nr 9 Sq. Crew: Ralph Ellis & Harold Barlow.

54) 6/23/1917. AC Spad VII Nr 23 Sq. Crew: Robert Farquhar.

55) 6/24/1917. AC DH4 Nr 57 Sq. Crew: Norman McNaughton & Angus Mearns.

56) 6/25/1917. AC RE8 Nr 53 Sq. Crew: Leslie Bowman & James Power-Clutterback.

57) 7/2/1917. AC RE8 Nr 53 Sq. Crew: Hubert Whatley & Frank Pascoe.

58) 8/16/1917. AC Nieuport XXVIII Nr 29 Sq. Crew: William Williams.

59) 8/26/1917. AC Spad VII Nr 19 Sq. Crew: Coningsby Williams.

60) 9/1/1917. AC RE8 Nr 6 Sq. Crew: John Madge & Walter Kember.

61) 9/3/1917. AC Sopwith Pup Nr 46 Sq. Crew: Algernon Bird.

62) 11/23/1917. AC DH5 Nr 64 Sq. Crew: James Boddy.

63) 11/30/1917. AC SE5A Nr 41 Sq. Crew: Donald MacGregor.

64) 3/12/1918. AC Bristol F2B Nr 62 Sq. Crew: Leonard Clutterback & Henry Sparks.

65) 3/13/1918. Sopwith Camel Nr 73 Sq. Crew: Elmer Heath.

66) 3/18/1918. AC Sopwith Camel Nr (?) Sq. Crew: William Ivamy.

67) 3/24/1918. AC SE5A Nr 41 Sq. Crew: John McCone.

68) 3/25/1918. AC Sopwith Camel Nr 3 Sq. Crew: Donald Cameron.

69) 3/26/1918. AC SE5A Nr 1 Sq. Crew: Allan Denovan.

70) 3/26/1918. AC RE8 Nr 15 Sq. Crew: Vernon Reading & Matthew Leggat.

71) 3/27/1918. AC Sopwith Camel Nr 73 Sq. Crew: Thomas Sharpe.

72) 3/27/1918. AC AWFK8 Nr 2 Sq. Crew: Edward Smart & Kenneth Barford.

73) 3/27/1918. AC Sopwith Dolphin Nr 79 Sq. Crew: George Harding.

74) 3/28/1918. AC AWFK8 Nr 82 Sq. Crew: Joseph Taylor & Eric Betley.

75) 4/2/1918. AC RE8 Nr 52 Sq. Crew: Ernest Jones & Robert Newton.

76) 4/6/1918. AC Sopwith Camel Nr 46 Sq. Crew: Sydney Smith.

77) 4/7/1918. AC Sopwith Camel Nr 73 Sq. Crew: Albert Gallie.

78) 4/7/1918. AC Sopwith Camel Nr 73 Sq. Crew: Ronals Adams.

79) 4/20/1918. AC Sopwith Camel Nr 3 Sq. Crew: Richard Raymond-Barker.

80) 4/20/1918. AC Sopwith Camel Nr 3 Sq. Crew: David Lewis.

[ 26. June 2003, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Nice... impressive list! (I love these lists... aces, TDBs, etc.) WW1 Dogfighting has always fascinated me. So low-tech- must have taken incredible skill- and cajones of steel!

What's the deal with 71-71? Are they not known?

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Thanx Carl for the info...

And some pics...



The last known 'portrait' of Manfred von Richthofen

If this is as stated in many reproductions, to be the last photo of von Richthofen, then it most probably was taken about 10 a.m., 21 April, 1918. The flying boots seen in the above image are now preserved at the Australian War Memorial.

There is also one other 'last image' (not reproduced here) which has von Richthofen in the cockpit of his Dr1 prior to take off on April 21, 1918 however his face is not visable

http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargra...uadron_06.html



von Richthofen's flying boots.

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Not entirely on the subject but here goes anyway... Anyone tell me why Eddie Rickenbaker?
Nieuport 28 had the MG's offset...one atop the cowling and one on the port side fuelsalage? Or was this all Nieuport 28's?

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That is a nice list Carl, why are 71-78 unkown?

Thank you guys and thank you Kai fro the extra info on Manfred.

As for the missing numbers--I didn't have time to type them in last night because the library was closing. I will have the remainder up sometime today. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

As promised--completed.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Nice work as usual, Carl!

Although, I must say, the "detective" instinct in me was kind of hoping that victories 71-78 were "unknown"...

Did you (or anyone!) see that Discovery Channel thing a while back- "Histories Mysteries" on the death of the Red Baron?
Unfortunately, I don't remember the info on the program... but is the death of the Red Baron still very controversial, or is there a general consensus about the circumstances of who shot down the Baron?

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Good list, Carl! And here I have to add the Great War German aces. Do the bold names sound familiar or WWII-related?

80 M. von Richthofen
62 E. Udet
53 E. Loewenhardt
48 W. Voß
45 F. Rumey
44 R. Berthold
43 P. Bäumer
41 J. Jacobs
41 B. Loerzer
40 O. Boelcke
40 F. Büchner
40 L. von Richthofen
39 H. Gontermann
39 K. Menckhoff
36 M. Müller
35 J. Bückler
35 G. Dörr
35 E.R. von Schleich
34 J. Veltjens
33 H. Bongartz
33 O. Koennecke
33 K. Wolff
32 T. Osterkamp
32 E. Thuy
31 P. Billik
31 K. Bolle
31 G. Sachsenberg
30 L. Allmenröder
30 K. Degellow
30 H. Kroll
30 J. Mai
30 U. Neckel
30 K. Schaefer
29 H. Frommerz
28 W. Blume
28 W. von Bülow
28 F. von Röth
27 F. Bernert
27 O. Fruhner
27 H. Kirschstein
27 K. Thom
27 A. von Tutschek
27 K. Wüsthoff
26 H. Auffahrt
26 O. von Boenigk
26 E. Dostler
26 A. Laumann
25 O. von Beaulieu-Marconnay
25 R. von Greim
25 G. von Hantelmann
25 M. Näther
25 F. Pütter
24 E. Böhme
23 H. Becker
23 G. Meyer
22 H. Göring
22 H. Klein
22 H. Pippart
22 W. Preuß
22 K. Schlegel
22 R. Windisch
21 H. Adam
21 F. Christiansen
21 F. Friedrichs
21 F. Höln
20 F. Altemeier
20 H. Bethge
20 R. von Eschwege
20 W. Goettsch
20 F. Noltenius
20 W. Reinhard
19 G. Fieseler
19 W. Frankl
19 O. Kissenberth
19 O. Schmidt
18 H. Baldamus
18 F. Hemer
18 O. Hennrich
18 K. Wintgens
17 W. Böning
17 E. Heß
17 F. Ray
17 H. Rolfes
17 J. Schwendemann

[img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img] (this should be a PLM, shouldn't it)

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

aah... ze memories of my first victory... Excellent [img]graemlins/rk.gif[/img]

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Fried :

Can you go beyond 17 down to 10 ? I know it maybe tough but would like to cross check my data

~E

No, I'm afraid I cannot. My sources are down to 17... the next thing in list are the Austro-Hungarian aces.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Ok, recently I read a book called 'First of the Few' by Dennis Winter. It is quite the best book I have ever read on WW1 flying. Now Winter suggests that German pilots were on average better than their RFC counterparts because they had better training, better flying hours, better tactics (for the most part) and often better aircraft (German aircraft were designed by engineers, British ones by draftsmen). Now this set me to thinking, if you took a pilot like Mannock who scored 75 victories he is obviously one hell of a pilot. Then you factor in that a higher percentage of his kills were fighters than Richthovens because German 2 seaters were much harder to bring down due (because they were technically superior and the crews tended to be better than their British counterparts). This got me to thinking that logically, if the highest scoring allied aces were scoring as well as their German counterparts, the chances are they were better pilots. Take Mannock and Richthoven, Mannock he was 5 kills short of the Red Baron, his kills were against opponants who were (on average) more skilled and more often against fighters. Moreover, in the German air service it was common practice for a squadron to set up a kill for the leader, this did not happen in the RFC. This suggests to me that actually Mannock was a better pilot than Richthoven, the same could be applied to Mcudden and so on. That is not to say that the Red Baron was not a great pilot, just that maybe the higher scoring allied aces were at least as good as Richthoven and so on. Any thoughts?

Wilconqr, I think that was all Neuport 28's, I actually havent worked out what the point in the gun being there was myself, would make ammunition feed and clearing jams most inconvenient.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Sorry I forgot to answer your Q--Wilconqr. As for a decent answer--I don't have one. I don't know why the MGs were staggered like that unless--it supposedly gave him a chance to cover more area with two seperated MGs?

Thank you Crazy

I didn't see that History Channel special but--there was one played on the Discovery Channel which used forensics and much more--to try to show how he died.

They made computer simulated programs--made maps of his final flight--everything taken in consideration for eyewitness accounts.

In the end--they concluded he was shotdown (he had 1 bullet hole in him) by an Australian or British Infantryman. This infantryman must have got that lucky 1-in-a-million-shot.

Trouble is--is that all weapons involved in trying to shoot down the Red Baron--all fired the same calibre of ammunition--.303 British. So it's still not absolute when thay say that he wasn't killed by that Infantryman--so Captain Brown is still a major possibility in the Red Barons death.
(( Speaking of Red Baron)) i'm having Red Baron pizza tonight for supper ))

Thank you Fried--and you have a nice list as well and I do recognize most of the names. Funny you should have this list here--because in about the next 5-6 months--I have planned on starting a project that has to do with all of these gentlemen. Rather--all of them who have the PLM [img]smile.gif[/img]

Manfred--I THOUGHT you might like the trip down memory lane.

I think on Frieds list---that all aces with at least 17 victories are PLM recipients--not fully positive but--i'll ask my source in Deutschland and see what he says. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

17 for the PLM ? not sure about that though....

Manfred was a tenacious fighter, skilled in deflection shooting. He was oone of the best no doubt...

!E~

Yep--thats the number that Manfred got his on and I think Goring too.

Or if i'm mistaken on the Baron--then it is Ernst Udet who got his at that number. now I know as the war went on--the criteria was raised but--not by much.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Stefan- I wonder if it made the interupter mechanism for the propellor any more intricate?

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I don't reckon the interruptor gear would be much more complex, the simplicity of the system means that it could easily work on a gun on the side of the aircraft. I have one idea why it would be arranged like that, the aircraft was initially armed with a single vickers gun, then they changed the armourment for 2 Marlin guns, if a second Vickers had been added the gun could have been placed on the right of the decking in front of the pilot (there were two versions of the airborn Vickers guns, the A and B which fed from opposite sides to make it easier to use them on aircraft) but the Marlin fed from the right (I think) and hense could not go on the decking as it would throw shell cases at the pilot, hense sticking it on the side of the fuselage would make life easier.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

I would agree with Stefan in which he has to say about who were better trained and had actually more combat skills. We can easily compare that with the German pilots in WWII. Nobody has a question about Erich Hartmann being an excellent pilot, but most of the 352 aeroplanes he shot down were Russian (old and new models) most of them manned by inexperienced pilots. We can't say the same about Adolf Gallnd who shot more than 30 British aeroplanes during the battle of Britain, against very well-trained British pilots, fighting like lions in very good machines. Even Hand-Joachim Marseille... 158 Western-Allies aeroplanes are more impressive than 300 Russians... Certainly, a Hurricane was much harder to shot down than an IL-2... And the RAF and USAF pilots were more experienced than those of the Red Air Force, even if they had exceptions like Boris Safanov and Ivan Kozhedub...

And I also think that the PLM was awarded at 18 or at least 20... Von Greim and Göring did not have more than 25 victories and they were PLM recipients.

And Manfred von Richthofen was awarded his PLM in December 1916 when he had achieved his 12th victory, who was the British leading ace, major Lanoe Hawker.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

That is the best argument for Richthovens ability to my mind, Hawker was one hell of a pilot. I seem to remember that there was an incident when he inverted his fighter and fell out, holding onto the the of the wing he climbed back into the cockpit and righted the aircraft. Impressive eh?

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.