South Korean R.O.K.'s in Vietnam- heard somewhere that they had been around Ma Lai durring the supposed American inflicted massacre there- not sure I believe all the particulars there as well either. Also heard that U.S. Arty was supposed to flatten the village but troopers wouldn't leave.

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http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Vietnam/Allied.htm

And if your still reading this thread ww2buff, dont stop posting...

All views are valid, no one is attacking you, we are all entitled to a view and a opposite view, though sommetimes facts have to be presented.

If truth be known I agree, like Carl with your first post of the thread, and I certainly do not disparage any vet from Vietnam.

My argument is only with the wording of one of your later posts..But hey look at some of mine..Some of em are quite embarrasing...

Got to hate that Martin Geezer, keeps picking me up... [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

VERY well written Andy, Mike, Bill, Urgh....

From Bill's description of the evac from that rooftop--I sure do remember those scenes well--from the nightly news. Such a small rooftop--yet there was an American chopper trying to rescue who they could. Seeing that some Marines were not on the chopper when the flood of refugees surged toward that aircraft--sent a chill up my spine then--when I was merely 8 years old and it Still sends that shiver to this day when I see those scenes replayed as part of some documentary being played.

This could have been utter chaos-and maybe was but--they still pulled it off. I owe eternal grattitude to any and all vets--and especially those vets that were there.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

[quote]Originally posted by AndyW:
[quote]Originally posted by ww2buff:
[qb]

Quote:

Because the American public is not able to except the truth... That America has not lost a war in her entire history.

not lost.

"We did not lost the Vietnam war because it was no War, just a conflict" But that is just it my friend. I will never ever call Vietnam anything more than a war. A war(in my opinion) consists not of a declaration of war but engagement of military forces over a long stretch of time but no less than 6 months.

He unilaterally reduced American troops from 550,000 in 1969 to 30,000 in 1972.

But that is the REASON we lost. I know that Vietnam can never compare to WWII, but in 3 island hopping campaigns which lasted at most 3 weeks each we lost a total of 16,000 men(my facts might be a little off its more than 10,000 I know that.Oh, when I say "we" I mean the USA. Anyway, you may never be able to accept the fact that the US won Vietnam. And you don't have to. I am not trying to force anyone to do that. What I am trying to convey is the point that the American military was stabbed in the back by it's own media, portraying flase reports on battle stats and then only reporting the ones that it wanted to portray( such as "American patrol ambushed by An Drang 4 killed, 2 wounded." instead of(maybe) "Americans made a sensational counterattack when our forces were ambushed near the coastal town of Dien Fang( I am just making up these towns for example)." You see my point? The media won the Vietnam war, not the North Vietnamese. And let us say that I agree with you. The communists won. They could never have done it without the Viet Cong, so it really wasn't even the North Vietnamese that won the war it was the VC.

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Brett, Son of Ray and Kim, Who Loves Being Polish.
"Vini, Vidi, Vici" (I came, I saw I conquered!) - Ceasar

"Nuts" - Gen.McAufflie

and, two sentences later:

Quote:

But that is the REASON we lost.

So what now?

Quote:

Anyway, you may never be able to accept the fact that the US won Vietnam.

You're right. It would be a good start if you post some of the FACTS you claim to have to convince me (and some others here) that The U.S actually won the Vietnam war.

I'm just a stupid fellow, an overloaded helicopter leaving from the U.S. embassy while a T-54 full of Vietcong is rolling over the Stars and Stripes and U.S. military helis dumped into the sea from a carrier to make place while the North Vietnamese national flag was waving over entire Vietnam isn't much of a sign for an U.S. victory to me.

Couldn't find too many Coca-Cola Inc. factories in South Vietnam after 1975, neither. Just Commies.

Cheers,

[ 19. May 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Thank you Andy. I am not sure myself what I am saying. But in any case, even if I did come up with conclusive proof that the US won the war, you would never believe me. However, I adamantly stand by my claim that we won in a MILITARY sense(Believe it or not) But we lost our objective of keeping S.Vietnam free. I say it for the last time.

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Brett, Son of Ray and Kim, Who Loves Being Polish.
"Vini, Vidi, Vici" (I came, I saw I conquered!) - Ceasar

"Nuts" - Gen.McAufflie

Andy -

Those helo's you saw being dumped all those years ago off the fan tails of the U.S. Seventh Fleet were mainly flown by escaping South Vietnamese ARVN ( Army Of The Republic Of Vietnam ) troops, fully armed, and running with their own skins intact while the civilian population had to face the brunt of the NVA take over.

Also, Andy, you and our other German contingent of members here might get a laugh out of this. The "funniest" thing I have seen of late is when a German born Vietnamese whose parents escaped to Germany after the collapse of Saigon, and who was born in Germany, visited his Vietnamese aunt who works with my wife. Upon informing him that she worked with a woman, my wife, whose husband's side of the family by his mother, herself, her brother, and my maternal grandparents, had immigrated to the U.S. after World War II, and could speak German with him, came to visit us. After awhile, with him only being able to speak Vietnamese and German, myself German and English, and my wife only English, it was brought to my attention that my German was incorrect, and I needed to work on my pronunciation! When asked which part of Germany he was from, he said Leipzig. Well, I told him, our family came from the Hamburg-Bremen area of Germany, and I was taught by the family to speak "hoch deutsch" not "sud deutsch" or "platt deutsch".

I guess the remnants of the Vietnam era still come to be from time to time for me.

Bill

Blimey Bill its twenty to eight in the morning over here....and youve just given me my first headace of the day...

So in fact your Croatian with a semblence of Viking in the blood who speeks perfect Mandarin Chinese..

Two white ones please dear...dissolve em in water thanks and an ice pack....

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Sorry had to slip this one in..

Someone mentioned the French.

http://www.dienbienphu.org/english/index.htm

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Bill,

I thanks for the background on the "dump". I alwas thought this is one of the more impressive pictures, (along with the headshot of the VC and the napalm-child running out of the village) with all the symbolism in it...

As for the mixed up world we're living in: lol, guess that's globalisation! And hundred years ago, people read of a earthquake killing thousands weeks after it happened!

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

The American military involvement in Vietnam reminds me of this saying
"The operation was a success, but unfortunately the patient died on the operating table".

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

Good God Urqh, twenty minutes of eight, and you're already up and reading bits on the forum!

I'll pass you the aspirin, via airmail, and registered. You might see it in a few days. Hopefully by then the headache will have passed, and you'll no longer have need to medicate yourself.

Bill