German film makers are currently in Munich cutting a first: a war film with a German hero made in English for an international audience.

The Red Baron is about the life of Manfred Von Richthofen and it's evidently the first drama about the life of this World War I flying ace, who had 80 "kills" to his name before he himself was shot down. Perhaps those dog fights, then and now, provide a comfort blanket to those who would rather see war as glorious than sordid: they literally soared above the stinking mud and blood-drenched conflict below, echoing the quick skilful cuts of a duel rather than the drawn-out horror of gangrene and mustard gas.

But the director and producer insist that this is an anti-war film, with the theme of a hunter who relied on his keen sight but was blind to the way those in power manipulated his idol-like status.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6040086.stm

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Very much interested to see this. They claim it will show the real MVR.

I heard about this a month or so ago. I was thrilled. I'm glad that some more light is being shed on the First World War as of late with a few films. Especially from the German perspective. This will be a treat.

Anyone read Von Richthoffen: The Legend Evaluated by Richard Townshend Bickers? It's a great book.

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Yes I did, a piece of shit it was. I even corresponded with Mr Bickers over it & straightened him out.

I hope in the film they show that a majority of his kills were of slow 2 seat recon/artillery spotter aircraft and he did not shoot down that many fighter aircraft. The two seaters were important to shoot down but did not require alot of "fighter pilot" skills to dispose of.

I am not anti-red barron, it is just he has a reputation of shooting down mostly fighters, and that is just not true.

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List of kills; approx. 1/3 were fighters.

http://history1900s.about.com/librar...baronkills.htm

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How many did the second best guy get in the WW1? Both sides included. I don´t know much about WW1 but I recall Red Baron was quite in his own league (??).

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Rene Fonck with 75, Billy Bishop with 72, Raymond Collishaw and Earnst Udet both with 62 and Mick Mannock with 61.

You can see what looks like a full list here:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/aces/aces.htm

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Bishop actually had less. 58 or something. & Ze Baron had about 34 single seat which all by itself is considered an outstanding career. & 2 some 2 seats were not easy at all & it is fact that many of Germany's top WW1 aces were knocked down by 2 seaters. Lothar Von Richthofen & several others. Boelke's kills were mostly 2 seat, ( none of the more dangerous type Richthofen later faced ), & no one says a peep about his quality of opposition.

It is also fact that "all" of Germany's aces except Udet had more 2 seaters in their bag than single seaters.

& Richthofen as well is credited with 8-10 allied aces.


http://www.billybishop.net/bishopP.html

Bishop’s victory claims.

The late Ed Ferko was an American who had studied the records of the Luftstreitkrafte for nearly fifty years. His knowledge of the of the arm was unparalleled, equalled only by the British researcher in the same field, Alex Imrie. Ferko carried out an evaluation of Bishop’s victory claims using the Verlustliste der Deutschen Luftstreitkrafte., the records of Kofl 2, Kofl 4 and Kofl 6 and the unit histories of the German Jasta operating in the same area of the Front as 60 and 85 Squadrons at the time in question. At the conclusion of his researches Ferko commented. ‘ It is not a pretty picture. I have checked every possible German book, letter or record in my hands, looking for information either pro or con – nothing has been withheld which might confirm or deny any of Bishop’s victories. I have failed to match a single victory claim made by Bishop against a known German loss for the day, time and place in question’.

Bishop had 20+ witnessed claims. And of his 72 "confirmed" victories, 2 were shared. Yet, NONE of his witnessed claims nor either of his shared claims can be matched to German records!


I was a big Bishop fan many yrs ago, but literary data later tempered my hero worship somewhat.

Many of the kills were for this type or aircraft and they were a death sentence to their crews.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafwaddington/be2c.html

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Yah those were early ones.

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/ar...hp/t-6952.html

Cats that were shot down by 2 seaters. I don't personally count Richthofen as he was hit in the back of the head while facing the 2 seater 300 yards away.

Manfred von Richthofen
Ernst Udet
Karl Emil Schafer
Douglas Bell
Raoul Lufbery
Eduard Dostler

For anyone who considers a 2 seater an easy kill: Pilots mentioned above are aces who I can think of off the top of my head who were shot down (in some instances killed) while attacking 2 seaters.

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Reinout10 September 1998, 05:24 AM
Impressive list of aces downed by two-seaters.
Here are some more.

Max Ritter von Muller
Max Immelmann's death was credited to a two-seater crew, though I personally believe he shot off his own propellor after his synch gear malfunctioned.
Hans Bethge
Hans Pippart (his death is usually accredited to a Breguet 14 - that is a two-seater right?)
Walter Gottsch (his 20th victim's return fire killed him)

These men accounted for 113 machines/balloons. Distinguished as they are, a two-seater is not something to be taken lightly.

Kind reagrds,

Reinout

http://www.homestead.com/RitterAllied/Strutter.html

1 1/2 Strutter wasn't a bad machine.

Furthermore, the Strutter is fast enough to make a run away from enemy scouts if it is positioned correctly. Once past them, they will be hard pressed to catch it.

Last note, Manfred once met James McCudden in 1916. McCudden flew in every year of the war & was a close competitor for awhile to Manfred. He counted 24 bullet holes in his tail after landing & said about manfred, :The leader manoeuvered 'very' well.

McCudden also had roughly two 3rds of his kills being 2 seaters. He is called by some British aviation WW1 enthusiasts as the wars single most expert on 2 seat combat. & on the flip side, Manfred who had even more or em is labelled the lame duck chaser & so on. That wouldn't be biasedness would it?? Nah,couldn't be.

Keep in mind that although some may say it doesn't count, there were several Bristol Fighter aces, here are the top ten:

1 Gass, Charles George 39
2 McKeever, Andrew Edward 31
3 Thompson, Samuel Frederick Henry 30
4 Atkey, Alfred Clayburn 29
5 Gurdon, John Everard 28
6 Latimer, Dennis 28
7 Middleton, Thomas Percy 27
8 Fletcher, Ronald Malcolm 26
9 Harvey, William Frederick James 26
10 Staton, William Ernest 26

Clearly at least one two seater wasn't hopeless.

Something else worthy of mention is that IIRC the Germans had a system where an entire flight would help to set up targets for their leader. Thus a man like MvR would have several pilots protecting him, fending off other fighters etc whilst he scored more kills. The allies had no such system.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Well, did Snoopy ever make it?

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Yes the Bristol Fighter was good but most of the the 2 seaters were not in the same league as they were and were easy kills.

I did not know of the flights setting up kills for the leader. I did know of the "flying circus" groups that would move along the lines to different aerodromes and make alot of kills. I am not aware of the French or British having these special fighter pilot units.

The Austro-Hungrians had alot of bizaar looking aircraft in their airforce also. I don't know if they had any high scoring pilots or if they got lumped in with the Germans.

If the new movie is at least as good as the "Blue Max" I will be happy with it.

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Leader is out front in either allied or German formations. Leaders usually get 1st crack, but they cannot attack all machines in an enemy formation simultaneously, therefore several will get a shot at an e/a in any engagement.

Circus was moved to where the army needed them, which was usually where the action was,so they got more action than stationary groups.

Eyewinesses recount that Manfred would aften shoot up a machine & let his juniors finish it off & getting credit for it. His real score will forever be unknown.

From what I remember of Dennis Winter's book, he describes how scout/fighter squadrons would engage and get into dog-fights whilst the 'aces' tended to linger on the edges and watch out for loan aircraft. Flight leaders tended to instruct the new pilots to hang around at the edges of the fight, watch and stay out of trouble. Men like Richthofen and Mannock would watch from higher altitude then when they identified one of these rookies they would close in and try to shoot one down. IIRC it was whilst following one of these rookies that MvR was shot down.

That said, I am pretty rusty on WW1 fighter combat.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Actually Manfred, ( like Brown would do ), was watching over the battle not to look for stragglers or novices, ( which are impossible to identify from looking at an enemy machine by the way ), but rather to see how the battle progresses, & also to look after his juniors & nail an enemy machine that gets on the tail of one of his boys. he did this very thing in chasing May who had just attacked Manfreds cousin who was a greenhorn. Dunno what exactly a loan aircraft is, but am quite certain identifying a rookie by looking at his plane is quite impossible.

On occasion he would take on a machine that was being macho & separated itself from it's formation to attack Manfred & his circus. he distained this type of individual vs team macho sort of departure from the air group tactics & did not hesitate to attack these types. Having said that, he did on occassion do solo patrols, but this was not the norm for him.

& contrary to the popular view, one of Manfreds pilots recounts in the book The Aces Talk by Ed Sims, they often flew across enemy lines. Which is often depicted as Manfreds great mistake, but that's just another myth. "someone" got a lucky 5-600 yard shot, Some might say a fortunate shot. It was not the 1st time his machine or many other machines for that matter were hit from the ground.

As for Manfred always being protected, it is quite impossible as an aireal melee quickly degenerates into chaos & He would often be separated from the pack. he was once surrounded by 4 single seat fighters. His brother Lothar flew over & scared em off. Lothar had no ammo. When they landed at base, Manfred said to lothar; I thought that was gonna be it!

Well, the simple fact that an aircraft was keeping it's distance from the engagement could surely be enough of an indicator, keeping in mind that flight leaders would often (as I just said) tell the new pilots to stay out of the actual fight, watch, learn and be ready to run. Thus any pilot who wasn't actually in the fight was likely to be new to the game.

Quote:

On occasion he would take on a machine that was being macho & separated itself from it's formation to attack Manfred & his circus. he distained this type of individual vs team macho sort of departure from the air group tactics & did not hesitate to attack these types. Having said that, he did on occassion do solo patrols, but this was not the norm for him.

Serious question, how often did individuals attack entire formations single handedly? That's not macho that's foolish.

Quote:

& contrary to the popular view, one of Manfreds pilots recounts in the book The Aces Talk by Ed Sims, they often flew across enemy lines. Which is often depicted as Manfreds great mistake, but that's just another myth. "someone" got a lucky 5-600 yard shot, Some might say a fortunate shot. It was not the 1st time his machine or many other machines for that matter were hit from the ground.

What's that old saying about a lucky arrow can fell the noblest knight. I guess it's one of those things about warfare through the centuries, how often have great warriors been killed by a fluke shot from a bow, rifle, shrapnel splinter or whatever.

Chrome, I will bow to your knowledge on this one as I'm no where near being well read on the subject. Just curious about a few things

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Well, I enjoyed it. Although I wish it had been more of a biography.

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