Just when you think that you've read all there is about the subject, it turns out that there was one actual, known human survivor from the five Companies of the Seventh Cavalry who rode with Custer to their deaths at the Little Big Horn.

HistoryNet » Survivor Frank Finkel’s Lasting Stand

Doesn't anyone here ever talk about Custer's Last Stand?

Who lol.

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They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them. Lest We Forget

I dunno, what other stands did he do?

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Interesting, I always though the only survivor was a horse.

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Skip;
You're right-a horse. Custer fired his apprehensive Crow guides just before attacking and they survived-but you can't call these lucky firees as "survivors of the battle". I was looking down that draw when we went and it's wide open shooting gallery of a hill towards the Little Bighorn River that just goes on and on and on... "I wouldn't want to attack those woods on horse if I was reasonably certain that there was an old lady's knitting circle down there with firearms" I joked to the wife (The wife was in no joking mood as she later said the Custer battlefield was one of the spookiest places she has ever been). But Custer attacked down that draw against the advice of his guides, at a massively numerically superior foe, after splitting his forces, and possibly even after watching Reno being routed-and it's possible he knew about those Winchester rifles the Lakota had been buying. What was he thinking? The Little Bighorn is a great place to visit and wrestle with the mystery. DSC00068 pictures from west photos on webshots
JeffinMNUSA

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great pictures! I remember reading that the horse was venerated almost as a saint and got a luxiourious stable and lived the rest of his life as a "King"

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Not exactly a popular subject in the scheme of things.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I'm the "Confederate with a pipe"!! LOL

It's been talked about from time-to-time here. I remember starting a thread which talked about this about 2-4 years or so ago. This had to do with that Documentary series that first the History Channel had and then the Learninig Channel aired. I can't remember its exact title but this series took you through famous battles whose facts were either wrong from the get go-and or through the years-were somehow changed. Anyway, this documentary series did several subjects that I watch--all using modern Archeology (SP?) techniques in order to ""see"' what ""really"" happened.

One show I remember watching, was about who shot down the Red Baron. Another had to do with the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor etc. Well, the particular program im talking about was to do with Custers Last Stand. It was amazing at what was discovered on the battlefield sites. The scientific teams logged into a computer-which fed to a satalite, and they were able to mark down where the fighting took place.

They did this by types of ammo casings found and were able to determine the movements of a number of Soldiers and Indians. Anyway, I know that topic was discussed on this site sometime ago.

Also, WELCOME BACK JOHN!!!

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

It is neat to know that there actually was a survivor. But, Custer's part of the battle was little more than a rout followed by a massacre that can hardly be described as a military action.

I remember a joke about Custer. What were his famous last words? "Damn that a lot of Indians!".

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman.

I'm the "Confederate with a pipe"!! LOL

A military action allright-and if Custer was anything but the most towering of egomaniacs his last words would have to have been "S&*^&! I &%^$ed UP!!" So was it an ambush set up by Crazy Horse? Or did the situation just happen that way? My thoughts after fresh back from the site; The one surprise was the firing lines the Lakota/Cheyenne threw up on ridges around Custer's postitions so as to pepper him at range leaving one to wonder if Crazy Horse had heard about "fixing the enemy.". This was basically a modern firefight and if there were any "arrows and tomahawks" employed it was probably in Gall's final flanking attack-if at all. From start to finish the Battle lasted on half hour and ended with a lopsided Lakota/Cheyenne victory. So what was Custer thinking when he ordered the charge across an open field against a foe who as it turned out possessed superior firepower? It was certainly a massive mistake on his part and the old "hey diddle diddle right up the middle!" plan was NOT the way to go! If he had brought the 2 Gatling guns could Custer have prevailed? Looking over the field and thinking on things I guessed not-the Indians made good use of cover, had some well placed firing lines, were mostly armed with firearms themselves some of which were superior to the troopers' ; and the best the Gatlings could have done is possibly staved off annihilation. Possibly.
Indian Memorial - Little Bighorn Battlefield NM

Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument (U.S. National Park Service)

Friends of the Little Bighorn, home of Custer's Last Stand

Eric von Schmidt paints Lewis and Clark

The Friends of Bear Paw, Big Hole and Canyon Creek Battlefields

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Custer divided his unit when he was facing a force superior in number. In the book he wrote (My Life in the Plains) he used this tactic of dividing his forces when he attacked an Indian camp. He succeeded. However, at Big Horn, he underestimated the force he was facing. He thought he could do it again. That was a recipe for disaster.

Falcon Jun;
Custer also underestimated Crazy Horse. The Lakota Chief had lured US Calvalry into vulnerable positions and ambushed them before-when he was a minor Chief during the Red Cloud War with the Fetterman party. By Little Bighorn Crazy Horse's warriors were all armed with firearms, he was in perfect ambush position, and he had an overconfident opponant, and he had learned much. I think that even if Custer had come with all his forces they too would have died-or at least been bloodily repulsed- on that "perfect shooting gallery" of a hillside rolling downwards towards the Little Bighorn River.
JeffinMNUSA

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True. there was no 'last stand,' in the strictest term. Custer and his men were simply shot down while trying to run away. Recent archeological evidence relvealed that the last soldiers to die in the battle were killed at deep ravine, away from 'last stand hill.'

I would like to visit the battlefield; my history teacher has been there and says it was really interesting.

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"Live as brave men; and if fortune is adverse, front its blows with brave hearts." - Cicero

I agree with you. If Custer had not divided his unit, he and his unit might have survived. Custer's casualties would've been terrible, though.
If I recall correctly what I've read, Custer was also running out of ammo. His last message to his supply train was "Bring packs," I think. Essentially, Custer's plan was send a small unit out for a hit and run, use this as a bait while his larger unit moved to a vantage point to attack the force that his bait lured. Once his trap is set, the unit that was bait would turn and complete the trap. Custer had a good idea, however, as you've said, Crazy Horse was a veteran and was ready for Custer.

Thankyou for all of your imput and also for the "welcome back!" I've spent some time on this Little Bighorn Site: Little Big Horn Associates Message Board - Home

and have found out from a number of the historians there that Custer's battle plan was not all that flawed afterall. Such cavalry tactics used against overwhelming odds had worked remarkably well on a number of other occasions against the Plains Indians in years past. Had all of Custer's Officers followed his orders to the letter, Custer and the 7th Cavalry could very well have won the Battle of the Little Bighorn. Some facinating stuff!

I've been there twice, and I saw no place to hide.
The guy who gave the tour (when I was little) said after the troopers dismounted the Indian Nations just lobbed (umpteen) thousands of arrows over the small hills to eradicate the remainder of the troops.
The second time I went was with two Native American friends. Neither had any Love for George, and I bought a T-Shirt that had five Indians in a circle looking down and read "Custer's last vision" at the Pow Wow.
I can see how someone could get away during this (non-visual) barrage.
I did always think only one wounded horse survived.

A fun read

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All opinions expressed here are those of "Little Green Men" and don't necessarily represent views, positions, policy, thoughts, actions, or anything else.

Given that Finkel's handwriting on his Army Induction papers in 1872 matched with the handwriting samples taken much later in life, was one of the biggest bits of confirming evidence for me. His knowledge of how the battle had exactly proceded was another. Not many people in late 19th century America would be privy to that information, or would have cared to know about it, had they been so. His bullet wounds are another determiner. I wonder if the Henry Rifle slug that was removed from his side, is still in the hands of some historian or museum. It could be compared with rifling of a number of other rifle bullets taken from the LBH battle site.

Well, one thing I can say. What worked before might not work again, especially against a foe that has dealt with such tactics before.

the LBH is a common subject around here (Billings MT), and until the USDA changed the rules on pit roasted Bison (can't do it that way anymore), I used to go out ever year. Anyhoo, check this stuff out.

Here is an article, about the Montana Column, I will add it here.

Pretty interesting and has a reasonable map included:

http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/06/22/news/state/18-cavalarygroup.txt

This column departed from Ft. Shaw (named in honor of Robert Gould Shaw of the Mass. black troops), but at that time I don't believe any of their group were "Buffalo Soldiers". They apparently didn't transfer to the territories until Post LBH.


The three Native American tribes, the Sioux, Arapaho and Cheyenne most likely had atotal number of on the LBH of about 6,000 persons of whom 75% would be women, kids and the elderly. Which probably made the odds in favor of the tribes (at best) 2.5 to 1. So while the troopers were outnumbered in the total, it was a combination of mis-management and tactics (which had been successful in the past), and perhaps a lack of time with the new "Trapdoor" Springfield.

The Ordnance Board testing which took place between 1871 and '73 was quite extensive and revealing. The way they tested the 89 rifles and carbines offered up would have the PETA people in a conniption fit today. They would tether animals like cows, horses, elk, bison