I recently got into Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series (middle of "Post Captain" right now). I delved into these historical novels after my sanity would just not permit another viewing of "Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World." Can anyone suggest a good movie like that? I'm really enjoying the reading, the first voluntary reading of fiction I've done in years. Understanding some of the good ole "British english" would have me "balls-up" without the aid of a good dictionary, at times. However, what I'd like most of all is to find a really good website that explains, in great detail, the workings, rigging, weaponry, goings-on, etc. of a British Man-of-War of that age (1794-1815). Any suggestions??? Thanks.

__________________

Wilconqr, have you tried playing Wooden Ships and Iron Men at this site?

youplay.it - play VampiRing board game online and other multiplayer multiuser free online games

__________________
Best Regards,
JW

Hello Slipdigit. No, I haven't played. Divided time between working, reading and playing the banjo doesn't leave much. Anyway, I was just looking for a good site that..err..like I said, explains in great detail, etc., etc. to help understand a little better when reading the novels. I was over your way 'bout a month ago, Mobile that is. I went to Battleship Park. Got a few good pictures..maybe I'll post a couple. I think it's a sad shame how dilapidated the submarine Drum and many of the aircraft outside have been left to ruin.

__________________

I've not been there in many years. I think Katrina did a number on the exhibits. The Drum is out of the water, finally, before it rusted to pieces.

__________________
Best Regards,
JW

Maybe someone can just answer this simple question: In the movie "Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" the HMS Surprise was described (onscreen in the beginning of the movie) as a 28-gun frigate. Why then, after an examination of the ship in the movie and in literature, does her plans New Page 1
have her at 36 guns? (22) 12 pounders, (2) 9 pounder chasers, and (12) 32 pounder carronades???

__________________

A mistake by the movie makers?

__________________
Best Regards,
JW

I would suggest getting the book Line of Battle The Sailing Warship 1650 - 1840 Robert Gardiner ed. as a starter. It will explain the basics in sufficent detail to answer your questions.

As for the Surprise. I would think that being rated as a 28 would barely qualify her as a frigate of the period. Rating systems back then were not always consistant. Most frigates were rated one of two (or both) ways. First by their "theoretical" guns mounted and second by "rate" or "class" typically going from First (largest) to Fifth (smallest).

A 28 gun Fifth rate frigate would likely mount either 12 pdr or 18 pdr guns (with 12's being more likely) on the gun deck with either long 9's or 12 or 18 lb carronades on the spar deck in an incomplete battery (eg., there is a gap with no guns in the waist / amidships).
The British also really did not build alot of 28's as they were just too small to really be effective. Their most common frigates were 36's like the Unicorn, Southampton or, Flora classes of the period. These carried armament as described above usually in a uniform battery of one gun size without carronades on the gun deck only. British constructors of the period felt that guns on the spar deck were detrimental to efficent sailing and could adversely effect the ship's hull girder weakening it.

Rigging is fairly straight forward. There are two groups: standing and running. Standing is used to hold the masts and yards in place and generally does not get messed with while sailing, hence the term standing. Running rigging controls the yards and sails. It is rigging that changes as the sails change.
One interesting note is that typically before battle most ships reduce top hamper by reducing their sailing rig to a minimum. Typically only the tops and top gallants are used if possible. Unused spars and yards are struck down along with their sails to reduce the potential for damage to the sailing structure.

The only thing I can think of to account for that would be that the ship used in the movie was originally modeled after the drawing of the HMS Rose, A 24 gun Frigate launched in 1757.

__________________
"When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." -General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson
"The conqueror is always a lover of peace; he would prefer to take over our country unopposed."-Karl von Clausewitz

Thanks T.A. ...and for the book suggestion. I'll probably get the better information from book sources since a web site doesn't seem to be forthcoming. Many of the books toward the bottom of this site Amazon.com: "learn about the world of Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin" seem to be proper companions to the Aubrey/Maturin series. Anyone read/own any of them? Best ones?

__________________

You might find what you need here:

Anova Books - Conway

Yeah, when I was there it looked as if some half-hearted stab at repairing the stern section might have been about to kick off. As for the aircraft, if they fix just one then please let it be the Panther, my fav. Korean War aircraft.

Attached Images

	100_0769.jpg (97.1 KB, 2 views)
	100_0771.jpg (68.7 KB, 2 views)
	100_0768.jpg (95.9 KB, 2 views)

__________________

Thanks T.A.. I'll have to go to the bookstore and order a few titles soon.

__________________

During the period in question it was common to "rate" war vessels by the number of guns for which they were designed and/or for which they were originally pierced. Many times guns were added wherever possible either by the ship's commander or during shipyard refits. The USS Constitution, for example, was "rated" at 44 guns, but usually actually carried 54-56 guns. Since a 28-gun frigate was of the smallest class of frigates in the Royal Navy, it would have been very tempting to "upgrade" her to a 32- or 36-gun vessel in her later career. The Royal Navy tended to discourage over-gunning of it's ships, but nevertheless it did happen. Other navies were overly enthusiastic about adding guns, and the early USN was one of the worst offenders, tending to carry too many guns for their size thereby ruining the sailing characteristics of otherwise well-designed vessels.

BTW, "The Line of Battle" by Conway is one of the very best books for info on warships of this period, containing separate chapters on ship types and their development, rigging and sails, gunnery, equipment, and terminology.

I found that Patrick O'Brien's books were not all that good at describing nautical operations during the age of sail and often used questionable terminology in the dialog. It really doesn't affect the story plots, but if you've ever sailed on a real "wind-jammer", it's a bit off-putting.

I thought I'd read somewhere that it was indeed the British who notoriously over burdened their ships with artillery...like Jack Aubrey's ill-fated attempt at installing a pair of 12 pounder bow chasers on HMS Sophie, his first command. Then again I've read somewhere that the British were, at that time, the best fighting navy in the world, of boarding, sailing, and being able to return a 2:1 broadside against any other navy of the time.

I'll have to put "The Line of Battle" on the list, if of course it doesn't cost $50.00 or more. Apart from food and fuel, books are an ever growing luxery in our faultering economy, for me anyway.

I agree that O'Brian's description of naval terminology has me dumbfounded most of the time. For all the excitment (of the action at hand) I usually breeze right through trying to differentiate between a "main-stay" and a "preventer-stay" and still have a high time of turning each page to see what's next. I really like the difference in characters between Aubrey and Maturin, too. I can identify with both, especially with Stephen who, by the third book in the series, still doesn't know what the "weather-gage" is but seems to fit right into the action.

__________________

Two other books that you might be interested in are "The Wooden World" and "The Command of The Ocean", both by N. A. M. Rogers. These books describe what life was really like in the RN from about 1700 to 1815. Having read these books one realizes what an amazing and successful organization the RN was for it's time. "The Wooden World" is, in my opinion, the better of the two but both are very informative.

I have a hardcover by Brian Lavery called "Jack Aubrey Commands: An Historical Companion to the Naval World of Patrick O'Brian." It gives a decent deal of general information, but it lacks a lot of ship plans on rigging, gunnery, etc.. There are a few more Aubrey/O'Brian books out there, but, judging from this one, I wonder if they're any better detailed. I just bought (couple weeks ago) "Fighting Techniques of the Napoleonic Age 1792-1815: Equipment, Combat Skills, and Tactics" by Robert B. Bruce, et all. The book has a very small section on naval warfare and is 90% land battles. Still, a good book in my opinion. Seems I'm going to have to order the naval books because neither Barnes and Nobles nor Books A Million nor Borders has any kind of a decent selection stocked.

__________________

The page you reference gives first:

Upper deck: twenty-four 9-pound long guns; Quarterdeck: eight 4-pound long guns and four 12-pound carronades; Forecastle: two 4-pound long guns and two 12-pound carronades.

This is about right for a fifth rate or sixth rate. The 12 lb carronades would weigh about the same as the 4 pdr longs so there is no real weight trade. The 9's would be right for a main deck battery.

It then gives a later battery in the Caribbean as: ...twenty-four 32-pound carronades and eight 18-pound carronades... This would be the equivalent in weight (roughly) of twenty-four 12 pdrs and eight 6 pd long guns. Doable but probably a bit overweight. Given the calmer waters of the Caribbean and lots of ports for shelter in a storm, again doable.
However, this is a very odd battery. All carronades. The few attempts historically with this sort of battery were usually disasterous to the ship so equipped in a naval battle. Unable to fire at anything but the closest range they were usually shot to pieces before they could effectively engage.

But, 22 12 pdr and 12 32 pdr carronades? No way. This is a huge increase in weight over the above. In anything but the calmest waters the main deck battery was likely to experiance alot of flooding.

The term "to have the weather gauge" is generally to be upwind and in a position on your opponet where you have the advantage to give or decline battle as you opponet would have to tack against the wind to close with you. The British Navy in this period was very big on keeping up wind of their opponets.

The lines you refer to "stays" are part of the standing rigging. These lines are fore-and- aft lines that hold the masts in place. The "Mainstay" would be the line(s) that hold the main mast in place running fo'ward from the main mast. The ratlines (those net-like things on the sides of the mast and ship) are the lateral or side stays of the standing rigging.

T.A.,
Thank you kindly. The book Jack Aubrey Commands (a compendium to the O'Brian series) gives the following information regarding HMS Surprise:

"She was quite a small ship at 579 tons, compared with 950 for a typical 36-gun frigate of the period, but she had a mainmast of a 36. 'Thus rigged', according to the leading naval historian of the period, 'the Surprise appears not to have been complained of as a sailer.' She was rated as a sixth rate 28-gun ship, based on the number of long guns she theoretically carried, but in fact she had a remarkably heavy armament of short-range carronades - twenty-four 32-pounders on the main deck, and eight of the same guns on the quarterdeck and forecastle, with two or four long 6-pounders in the same area."

I now see that the rating system, E.g., "28 gun ship" is based solely on the "theoretical" number of long guns only, and not carronades. Do you know of a site online that offers the weight characteristics for these guns? I'm nearly finished with the third book in the series entitled, HMS Surprise, but, unfortunantly, there is still no explanation of the guns carried. Also, Aubrey's second command, HMS Polychrest, was an experimental craft armed with nothing but carronades. (He lost the vessel durring a surprise attack on the northern French coast; a navigational error causing him to run aground and the nearby shore batteries and moored ships being alerted to his presence.)

Lastly, some quite peculiar things have been mentioned in the novels such as the midshipmen hunting and eating the ship's rats (called "millers"). I wonder how close to the truth such a thing could be, especially considering the disease factor and the typical filthy life of the crew aboard ship. I also seem to remember reading somewhere (maybe not in the series) that washing oneself with "urine" was well accepted over seawater. Any truth to either of these?

__________________