Hi all ...

I've been researching my grandpa, Bernard Kramer's military service for about five years now. About a year ago I finally got HUNDREDS of pages of his military records after requesting them for over a year with no luck. It was awesome to finally have all this material, and I had hoped answers, in my hands but unfortunately, his records seem to be a mess.
My grandpa died in 1976, 6 years before I was born. He never spoke of his service in the either WWII or Korea but his kids were always aware of his service as he was a career military man and the family moved from base to base frequently. My dad remembers very little of his dad's service -- he knew he had a Purple Heart, he knew he had been shot, and he knew his dad loved the military. My grandma was in civil service (she and my grandpa retired at the same base) and when she retired she was a GS15 at the military hospital near where we live and grew up.
Anyway, here's my query and where I'm hoping to find some help. To begin, my grandpa has 5 DD214s and I think there might be one missing. Out of all these records, it's been nearly impossible to discern what units he was with and where he might have served. I've had help from two military 'experts' and from a very nice woman whose had a career in the service and researches military history. She was very skilled at reading military records but could find nothing showing my grandfather was ever in combat. All my grandpa's friends are dead, save one who insists he earned his Purple Heart though he doesn't know how. The Purple Heart has been a source of pride for my father his entire life and it's the only thing of his father's that he now possesses.

NARA assessed that my grandpa was entitled to the following and sent them along to my father:

• Good Conduct Medal, 6th award
• Presidential Unit Citation
• American Campaign Medal
• Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal w. 2 Bronze Service Stars
• WWII Victory Medal
• Army of Occupation Medal
• National Defense Service Medal
• Philippine Liberation Medal w. 2 Bronze Service Stars
• Honorable Service Lapel Button WWII
• Expert Badge w. Carbine Bar

Notice there is no mention of the Purple Heart though it is listed on one unofficial record as being his. My dad also remembers that at one time the actual medal had the citation with it but it's long since disappeared.

Is it possible to be entitled to all these medals and never have served a day in combat? When my grandpa entered the service he was an expert lineman so he was in the Signal Corps and he was also fluent in German (his parents and older brother were German immigrants) so it makes sense to me the Army would utilize his skills. He was physically fit (a pro boxer and he excelled in sports). His last DD214 states that he served over 9 years of foreign service. He had two years of college and attended TI&E School (EUCOM) and "Sch Stds" in Zell Am See, Austria. He also attended Signal Corps School in NJ and Army Special Service School in NY. He retired on permanent 100% disability very shortly before he died of complications of diabetes that my grandmother swore he developed while fighting in the Philippines.

My father also remembers a wound my grandfather had -- he was shot through the calf. He also had scars on his back from something that happened during the war. I don't think it's of any importance but I wanted to mention too that my grandpa was one of 4 men who started our local American Legion Post -- he donated lots of money to the Post so that the men could start it up.

I should note that twice my grandpa was AWOL. The first time was for 57 days and the Army let that go. The other time he was AWOL from the Army Air Corps and the desertion was witnessed by a Pvt. in the Philippine Islands, which I thought was odd. How could a Pvt. in the Philippines report him AWOL if my grandpa was not in the Philippines?

I have a gillion more questions but this is long-winded enough. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I've researched this to death and for every bit of help I am lucky to get, it just adds more questions...

Thanks in advance!

Samantha

Samantha, you are on a big project looks like! Congrats on getting all the info sent to you, that's part of the battle. I wish I could be of more help. As for your grandpa not being in the Philippines, I think he'd HAD to have been there at some point to be awarded the PLM? not sure though. GOod luck!

__________________
Kicking up dust since 1978

@ luketdrifter: Thanks!

My dad has this whole German family he knows nothing about so this past five years of research has been really rewarding. BUT, finding out about his dad would mean the world to him. I'd really just like to know how he got this Purple Heart.

His records truly are a mess. After thumbing through them for the umpteenth time after my initial post, I'm more confused. The dates don't coincide at all. The Purple Heart is only mentioned in passing on an unofficial document. His foreign service dates are all mixed up and deciphering his units? Forget about it.

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement! Hope someone here can help me flesh this out...

There is a book you should check out...it's called "Finding your father's war." I can't recall the author right now, and my copy is lent out. It might help with unraveling some of the stuff on the records.

__________________
Kicking up dust since 1978

Just looking at his list of awards for WWII, I'd say he made the landing in Leyte, and fought at least 30 days in the Phillipines. (he needs that to receive the Phillippian Liberation Medal with two bronze stars. I'd say that is also where he earned the two battle stars on his Asiatic Pacific Campaign Medal. The unit that he served with in combat was awarded the Presidential Unit Citation. This award can be worn while attached to a unit that earned the award, but if he was in the unit when they earned it, it is considered a permanent award and placed in his records. He got an Honorable Discharge from WWII, and a really pretty clean service record with six Good Conduct Medals (also shows he was in for quite a while-20+ years I'd guess). The National Defense Service Meal shows he stayed in the service after the war because it wasn't authorized until after 1946 (not sure when). Everyone got one that served honorably. Oh, the Army of Occupation Medal was given to the guys that stayed "in county" after the war. The military kept a certain amount of guys to guard and help keep order until the Government could take over after the combat. And last but not least, he was a pretty good shot with the M-1 Carbine. Hope this helps.

I don't see anything for the Korean War, so I doubt he went to Korea, even tho he was in the service during that time. If you had his seperation papers it would give a better indication regarding where, when etc.

sjkramer--I've been rolling the Purple Heart Medal around in my head and can't understand why he wasn't awarded one in his records if he was wounded in the Phillippines. Would it be possible to post the unoffical record? If he earned one, and had the citation, he should be able to have it added to his records. Looks like it might be a qlitz in the paperwork.

Samantha, if you can, why not scan some of the relevant paperwork you have and post it here. There are some who could give you more information if they can see the forms themselves. Good luck with your quest.

__________________
"Faint heart never won fair maiden", so I say "Go for it!"

Lou

@ luketdrifter: Thanks for the recommendation -- I just ordered the book from Amazon.
@ Buten42: AH! Thank you so much!

I've attached Bernard's 5 DD214s that I have. I had spoken to someone about this a while back and they related they thought there should be at least one more DD214, possibly two, but I couldn't tell you if that were true or not. You'll notice I did not black out his serial number -- it brought me no luck on the NARA website and furthermore, there's another one listed that was used on other papers (though that number was corrected in pencil later on).

You'll notice that on one it lists quite a bit of overseas service and yet his final DD214 lists none at all. Also, none of them list any campaigns or wounds received in action. HOWEVER. His Service Record that I have (DA Form 24) reads the following:


"New service record prep UP para 5a AR640-201, 30 Jun 55. Prior awards: WWI Vic Medal - AMT M - AOM(Jap) - APT M w/4 BS - Purple Heart Medal - Presidential Unit Citation - AOM(Ger) - *CIB"

Also, I have a Soldier's Qualification Card that lists his previous military experience as:

FA 2 years Pfc Arty Mech Lt Last Date: 1939
Sig 1 year Pfc Wire Chief Last Date: 1940
Inf 4 years 1Sgt Adm NCO Last Date: 1945

It also states that he completed Signal School in 1939 and the course was 'Comm Chief'. On this his awards are listed as:

"WWII Vic Medal - AmTheatreRib - AmDefSvMed - OccupMed - GCMed (3 clasps) - APTOMed (2 Bz Sv Stars) - PhilLibMedal (2 Bz Sv Stars) - PresUnitCit O/SBars(2)"

Again, these records (though I consider myself quite lucky to have so much, no matter how confusing, considering that some on this same search come up empty handed) are a complete mess. Nothing ever matches up, dates are constantly mistated, etc.

While we all admit that it is possible that my dad is not remembering the stories correctly about the Purple Heart, I just can't imagine that through all those years and all that service, my grandpa never saw a day of combat or that he didn't actually earn that Purple Heart. I do KNOW that my grandpa was committed to the service and his career, as was my grandma, and that they both lead lives that revolved around the military (she was a civil servant before they married and was a GS15 when she retired).

Again, thanks so much to everyone for the help thus far. I cannot put into words how much my family appreciates it .

NOTE: I've been trying to upload the DD214s and I keep getting an error (a security token was missing?) so I'll try again later tonight. Maybe it's just a momentary problem...

Samantha, are you using the attachment icon (the paperclip) on your posts? Just click on that and browse your computer to find the file you want to upload. You may include 5 in each post. Try that.

__________________
"Faint heart never won fair maiden", so I say "Go for it!"

Lou

Kramer DD214 -- ONE

Kramer DD214 -- TWO

Kramer DD214 -- THREE

Kramer DD214 -- FOUR

Kramer DD214 -- FIVE

Keep in mind, those aren't in any sort of order. Again, I tried uploading them with no luck. Time outs and errors, things of that sort.

Anyway, hope this helps more than me rambling off .

I changed your status, may help with uploading pics to the site.

Have you contacted the VA to see if they have any hospital records of him?

__________________
Best Regards,
JW

JW,

I've not contacted the VA but the only reason for that is that NARA also sent me, at my request, Bernard's hospital records. However, all of these records are from the very end of his life, right before he died. There is nothing from his prior service, only records from 1970 on. None of these records mentions any other treatment other than to say that he twice received medical care during his service (on other occasions).

Also, if I remember correctly, he was once at the 229th General Hospital but this was sometime in 1945 or '46 I believe.

While I'm thinking of it, are there any other types of records from other organizations I could send off for? I've contacted our American Legion Post (as I mentioned, he helped found our Post and for a long while they had a huge picture of him on the wall) but they could offer no help. Anywhere else I should be looking into or any other types of files I might be able to get access to?

And thanks for the change of status, JW! If it helps, I appreciate it . I might need to upload more records so I imagine that might come in handy...

Samantha, You are missing one separation paper, his first from May 24, 1937 to July 19, 1940. This enlistment went well and he was discharged as a PFC with excellent character. He lost 57 days for some reason but didn't seem to effect his enlistment.
His next enlistment was problematic because he enlisted in March 31, 1941 and was discharged on 18 Sep. 1942. Looks like he forgot to show up for duty. When he did show, he was discharged from that enlistment (without any penality) and re-enlisted the next day on the 19th. During this enlistment he was sent to the Phillippines on Aug. 12, 1945 and arrived on Sept 9th just after Japan surrendered (Aug.15, 45) . After his Occupation duty for seven months, he arrived in the states on March 14,1946. Looks like the rest of his 21years service was spent in the states and Europe. I can't be sure, but the hostilities were over when he got to the Phillippines and don't think he would have gotten the Purple Heart--at least it wasn't included in his records.

He lost those 57 days but they did effect him. There was a court martial (of two total that he had during his time in the service) and he was sentenced to 18 days hard labor.

He was enlisted during this time with the Air Corps, a Weather Squadron if I remember correctly. He was with this unit when he was again reported AWOL by a Pfc. stationed in the Philippines. This was one of my initial questions -- I have the record of the report of him being AWOL from the Air Corps but how could someone report him if he was in the Philippines and my grandpa was supposed to be in the states?

This is what I was afraid of. Of course, my dad has no first hand stories but I thought maybe something was out of order considering how contradictory all his papers are. His brother (now deceased) supposedly had a first hand account of what happened and how the Purple Heart and certificate were gotten by gramps but he never relayed it to anyone before he died.

Anyway, thanks for ALL the help . Again, can anyone think of other resources that might help? Are there any other types of records I can request? And can anyone explain why he is considered to have earned all those medals if he never served in combat?

Another question (I know, I'm pushing it with all these questions ). Can anyone decipher the above? This was from the qualification card that also noted the Purple Heart. Just curious what the terms mean...

1. He was a mechanic in the Field Artillery. He was Private First Class
2. He was then transferred to signals, where he became a head of a line crew (probably just him and another man). 3. He was promoted to Non-Commmissioned Officer and ended up a First Sergeant in the infantry.

__________________
Best Regards,
JW

Thanks JW! I appreciate the translation .

Any thoughts as to why the Army might never have utilized him for combat? He had no dependents when he enlisted and he was not married, plus he was fluent in German (as I think I mentioned, his parents were both from Germany) and had prior experience in laying communication lines. From what I've read towards the end of the war the Army was running low on men so I can't understand why he was never called up for combat.

Again, I really can't thank you fellows for your help. I know I'm probably asking ignorant questions but this really is all greek to me...

The awards listed on the DD-214 you have as Number 1 lists awards as follows:
Victory Medal - The WW II Victory Medal was awarded to all military personnel for service between 7 December 1941 and 31 December 1946.

American Theater -
The American Campaign Medal was awarded to personnel for service within the American Theater between 7 December 1941 and 2 March 1946 under any of the following conditions.
(1) On permanent assignment outside the continental limits of the United States.
(2) Permanently assigned as a member of a crew of a vessel sailing ocean waters for a period of 30 days or 60 nonconsecutive days.
(3) Permanently assigned as a member of an operating crew of an airplane actually making regular and frequent flights over ocean waters for a period of 30 days.
(4) Outside the continental limits of the United States in a passenger status or on temporary duty for 30 consecutive days or 60 days not consecutive.
(5) In active combat against the enemy and was awarded a combat decoration or furnished a certificate by the commanding general of a corps, higher unit, or independent force that he actually participated in combat.
(6) Within the continental limits of the United States for an aggregate period of one year.


Asian-Pacific Campaign -
a. The Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal was awarded to personnel for service within the Asiatic-Pacific Theater between 7 December 1941 and 2 March 1946 under any of the following conditions:
(1) On permanent assignment.
(2) In a passenger status or on temporary duty for 30 consecutive days or 60 days not consecutive.
(3) In active combat against the enemy and was awarded a combat decoration or furnished a certificate by the commanding general of a corps, higher unit, or independent force that he actually participated in combat.
b. The eastern boundary of the Asiatic-Pacific Theater is from the North Pole, south along the 141st meridian west longitude to the east boundary of Alaska, then south and southeast along the Alaska boundary to the Pacific Ocean, then south along the 130th meridian to its intersection with the 30th parallel north latitude, then southeast to the intersection of the Equator and the 100th meridian west longitude, then to the South Pole. The western boundary of the Asiatic-Pacific Theater is from the North Pole south along the 60th meridian east longitude to its intersection with the east boundary of Iran, then south along the Iran boundary to the Gulf of Oman and the intersection of the 60th meridian east longitude, then south along the 60th meridian east longitude to the South Pole. The Asiatic-Pacific Theater included Alaska, Hawaii, Philippines, Australia, New Zealand, and all of Asia.



The Overseas Bar was for the 7 months service in the PTO (one bar was awarded for each 6 months of service overseas).


Good Conduct Medal - a. The Good Conduct Medal is awarded for exemplary behavior, efficiency, and fidelity in active Federal Military service. It is awarded on a selective basis to each soldier who distinguishes himself/herself from among his/her fellow soldiers by their exemplary conduct, efficiency, and fidelity throughout a specified period of continuous enlisted active Federal military service. Qualifying periods of service include each three years completed after 27 August 1940 or, for first award only, upon completion of at least one year upon termination of service if separated prior to three years. Also for the first award only, for those individuals who died before completing one year of active Federal military service if the death occurred in the line of duty. The immediate commander must approve the award and the award must be announced in permanent orders.


All of this comes from this site.

US ARMED FORCES AWARDS

The DD-214 that you have as Number 4 lists subsequent Good Conduct Awards and the National Defense Service Medal for service during a specified period of the 1950's. As to why he was not assigned a combat role during WW2, I can't even begin to hazard a guess. It seems as though his overseas time was limited to the 7 months beginning in August 1945.

Hope this helps.

__________________
"Faint heart never won fair maiden", so I say "Go for it!"

Lou

Okay, some basics on your granddad's service (or so it looks... the numbers in parenthsis are the DD 214 I am refering to)

He initially enlisted on March 31, 1941. He was in the 5th Signal Company at that time. He was charged with desertion but not court marshalled and was discharged at the convienence of the government on 9/16/42. Note the AW 107 57 days... (#2). Whatever the outcome of this it didn't prevent him reenlisting....

He then somehow reenlisted on 9/19/42 some three days later and served in the American theater and overseas in the Pacific but nothing notable is given on this service. He may or may not have seen combat during WW 2. His last job is given as MOS 502 Duty NCO. He was discharged on 4/15/46 honorably.(#1)

DD 214's 3 to 5 are for post war service.
He appears to have reenlisted immediately or shortly after the above discharge. #4 and #5 are for subsequent periods of reenlistment. I can't tell if he served in Korea or not during that period but it is possible. #4 is his last DD 214. He was discharged just over a year after reenlisting on that one for a physical disability and retired from service on 1/17/62 having served a total of 21 years, 1 month, 15 days. His final rank was E-6 / First Sargent.

If he did get awarded a Presidential Unit Citation it was almost certainly for service in Korea not WW 2. Very few US Army units got this award and the only one in the Philippines was the 26th Cavalry in 1941 before the PI fell. The PCU is a pretty rare award that is why I focused on it. There were quite a few units in Korea that got it however so it is possible he got his there.

Thanks T.A.! Actually, he was court marshalled. I have the record -- it states he violated the 61sy Article of War. The specification reads:

In that Private Bernard....., Battery "E", 3rd Field Artillery, Ft Sheridan, Illinois, did, without proper leave, absent himself from his proper organization at Ft Sheridan from about Oct 12, 1938, until he reported himself at Ft Jay, NY, on or about Oct 19, 1938."

He was found guilty and sentenced to 18 days hard labor and forfeiture of $8 pay.

HOWEVER. There is a military history report that was requested by ED Devlin, Unit Head of 13th Sch. Sq., Scott Field, Ill. It does not mention the court marshall but says instead that he was honorably discharged as a PFC, 5th Signal Co., Camp McCoy, after having served with Hq., Hq Btry and Combat Train, 2nd Bn, 3rd F.A.

None of this other records mention this court marshall.

Anyway, I'm probably harping on something that might not make a difference but I think it does show how these records are all over the place. As I mentioned, he was AWOL one other time and there are records for that indicating he was reported by a Pvt. Ivie B Knight, Air Corps, Philippine Islands. Thought that was weird, considering there's nothing in the records to indicate he was in the Philippines at that time...
There is also a record that states he was court marshalled for disobeying the lawful order of an NCO but it's never mentioned again, nor is the being AWOL as reported by Pvt. Knight.

Also, another question (you knew that was coming, didn't you?). One of his records says that he was transferred from Hq Co, 35th Infantry, APO 25 on 20 Nov 1945. He was sent to 229th General Hospital, APO 713, and left there 25 Dec 1945. Any idea where this place was?

More thanks . You guys are a wealth of knowledge. I'm happy to have found this board and will no doubt stick around. I'm a genealogy buff (in that vein, if anyone would like assistance there I'd be happy to reciprocate for all the help you've offered) but this military business confuses me .

Samantha--The 229th General Hospital was located in Occupied Nagoya, Japan.
His papers show he was in the Pacific Theater (Phillippines?/Japan?) from Sept. 9, 45 to March 8, 46--so he was transferred to the hospital while in the PTO.
The 35th Infantry Regiment (25 Inf. Div.) was assigned to Japan for occupation duty on Oct. 7, 1945 where it remained active thru 1946, so I believe he was in the Phillippines for about a month and transferred to Japan. You said NARA entitled him to two stars on his Asiatic Pacific and Phillippian Liberation Medal but he was only in the PTO for seven months on occupation duty (after the war ended). Also, I've never heard of anybody going AWOL, given a Courts Marshall, and committed to eight days of hard labor and retain his rank and given an "Excellant Character" for that enlistment. (May 1937 to July 1940). I show another enlistment from 31 march, 1941 to 19 Septamber 1942 as a Pvt. without any pay or assignment, but shows he enlisted a day after his seperation (19 Sept. 1942) as a PFC and servrd 2yrs, 11mts 24 days on a regular enlistment. I don't blame you for being confused--good luck on your search--I've got a headache..

HA! If I ever catch up with you in real life, I'll buy you a beer...and an aspirin .

Yup, NARA did entitle him to the medals and bronze stars...even sent them to my dad. My dad remembers he used to have quite a few medals but he and his two brothers were careless when they were little -- Army brats, you know -- and lost most of them.

To be honest, my dad found the AWOL bit amusing. His dad was always such a hard ass, railing on his boys for being hippies. I don't get it either. And it wasn't just that he was court marshalled ONCE. It happened three times! I've got four or five papers that discuss the first court marshall in detail but you're right, it seems odd to me too. All three times, it is mentioned in his papers when it initially happened but then never again, as if it never happened.

Anyway, thanks for the help. And thanks for the answers!

[QUOTE=sjkramer;434144]HA! If I ever catch up with you in real life, I'll buy you a beer...and an aspirin .

Now that's an offer I can't pass up. Thanks

Back in WW 2 the military justice system, particularly for enlisted, was different than it is today. There was no Non-Judicial punishment (article 15 in the Army and Air Force, Captain's mast in the Navy). So, many minor charges against an enlisted man that resulted in a low level court martial was treated much like Article 15 charges are today... that is, sort of like a serious traffic ticket or minor misdemeanor crime. No record of these outside the local unit was generally kept and if the soldier straightened out nothing more was made of it.
A summary court martial in the WW 2 period, and in the years immediately thereafter, would have consisted of just one or maybe two officers conducting the trial. For minor infractions like overstaying a pass or minor insubordination to an NCO the company commander usually held the court martial, often in his office, and the matter was handled within the unit in its entirety. No record would be made of it. The soldier might incur a fine, spend a few days or weeks restricted to the barracks, be stripped of his rank (eg., reduced to private), given extra duties, or some other similar punishment
It was not uncommon for an enlisted man to incur several of these sort of infractions over several years of service then either. Few would have be on the record. This changes when the US military switched in the early 60's from the Articles of War to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

As for APO's I suggest you might get a book like this one:

Jim Mehrer's Postal History Reference Literature

The numbers are to specific locations. Often these will then tell you what unit(s) a person might have been with at a particular time.

Good information--I was in during the 60's so I have that mind set concerning court marshalls. The battle stars and mention of a Purple Heart still don't make sense to me, but perhaps that can also be explained. The postal link is great-I bookmarked it for future reference.