I'm Embarrassed to ask this Question

[clueless_newbie]

Gentlemen,
I have a question that sooo reflects my ignorance that I'm embarrassed to ask it. I feel like everyone will say, "where did this moron come from"?

How should I handle this?

[jaguwar]

Ask the question. How can you advance from being a newbie without asking questions? I am sure no one on the forum would consider an uneducated person a "moron", They would just enjoy the fact that they can advance the knowledge they have to another person.

[texson66]

I tell my son, "The only dumb question is the one you don't ask!". Please ask. And welcome to the forum! There are plenty of nice folks here to help out too! (Got a chuckle out of your avatar!

[PzJgr]

Ask away or if you like, send a PM to one of the moderators. Ensures privacy.

[A-58]

You might learn more than you expected here once you learn the ropes and exchange banter with some of the rogues. Then you will have to petition Otto for a name change. What was your question anyway?

[T. A. Gardner]

If I were you I'd just say "From ----Your hometown here---" and leave it at that. The only morons here are those who are unwilling to learn. Ignorance is not a failure. Ignoring knowledge is.

[Sloniksp]

Well you better ask now, everyone is waiting!!

[bigfun]

there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. Ok, even I don't buy that! hehehe!
Ask away!!

[A-58]

Besides, I'm sure a lot of rogues won't have an answer for your question either. We have a lot of rocket scientists and brain surgeons here in addition to war game warriors.

[clueless_newbie]

Well, okay, here goes:

In the war movies concerning the Battle of the Bulge (e.g. Band of Brothers), we are always treated to these heroic American infantry holding off the German panzers.

Now, I know they're just movies, but I'm confused. The Americans seem to be armed with small arms, some grenades, and maybe a machine gun or two. And they're always "critically low on ammunition."

How is it that these men can hold off the German armor? I mean, you can't stop a Panther with an M-1 or a grenade.

Now, obviously, these guys did it in real life, so I'm missing something. How did it really happen? What stopped the German armor from just rolling through the positions?

And thanks for the kind responses.

[jaguwar]

That is not a stupid question at all. I am not the one to answer this question without taking a guess, but I would assume that there are a lot of different aspects that would explain how this really happened.

[T. A. Gardner]

Originally Posted by bigfun

there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. Ok, even I don't buy that! hehehe!
Ask away!!

There are stupid questions. Trust me. I spent alot of time in the Navy. One particularly good source is Ensigns.

Pencil necked Ensign: "So Chief, why is it that you could become an Ensign but I can't become a Chief?"

Me: "Sir, it's because we got #$#%@ standards!"

[A-58]

Originally Posted by clueless_newbie

Well, okay, here goes:

In the war movies concerning the Battle of the Bulge (e.g. Band of Brothers), we are always treated to these heroic American infantry holding off the German panzers.

Now, I know they're just movies, but I'm confused. The Americans seem to be armed with small arms, some grenades, and maybe a machine gun or two. And they're always "critically low on ammunition."

How is it that these men can hold off the German armor? I mean, you can't stop a Panther with an M-1 or a grenade.

Now, obviously, these guys did it in real life, so I'm missing something. How did it really happen? What stopped the German armor from just rolling through the positions?

And thanks for the kind responses.

When the 101st Airborne moved into Bastogne, it was supported by the 705th Tank Destroyer Battalion and Combat Command B of the 10th Armored Division as well, so in addition to rifles, bayonets and grenades, the paratroopers had some armored support available. It must be noted that both of these armored units were not full strength either, but were still capable of doing their job, especially in this case when their survival depended on it. Even though the 101st was in the process of being refitted after two months of sustained combat in Holland (Operation Market Garden and afterwards), it was a four regiment division (501st, 502nd and 506th PIR in addition to the 327th GIR) as opposed to the standard three regiment infantry division. The biggest advantage going for them was the fact that they were paratroopers, and being surrounded and cut off with little to no supplies was nothing new to them.

I know that I must have left something out, so please feel free to jump in and set me straight guys.

[Wolfy]

Originally Posted by clueless_newbie

Now, obviously, these guys did it in real life, so I'm missing something. How did it really happen? What stopped the German armor from just rolling through the positions?

And thanks for the kind responses.

The Panzer battalions spent much of the time stopping themselves- the Germans were critically low on fuel and the major spearheads resorted to feeding off captured US supplies. Considerably more German tanks were abandoned in the Ardennes than actually put out of action.

Secondly, the terrain did not allow for massed armor like in the Eastern Front. Tank units were often practically funneled through close quarters (a narrow road in the forest or town streets) where they were vulnerable to US troops armed with Bazookas and 57mm Anti-tank guns.

Finally, the US army units, being the most heavily equipped formations of the war, were not without Armor. There were tank and tank destroyer battalions in the Bulge battle, not to mention entire US armored divisions.

[Tomcat]

Welcome, to the forum.

Also the Paratroopers did not only have small arms at there disposal. They also had a limited amount of Anti tank guns like Wolfy pointed the 57mm as well as Bazooka's recoiless rifles, Satchel charges, mines, as well as mortars. Although they had the capability to cause damage to amoured units they generally were not equipped to take them on and usually the result was failure for the paratroopers just like an Arnhem during Operations Market Garden

[clueless_newbie]

Great guys, thanks for your replies!

Okay, now how would that work? The Germans began with the artillery barrage, but then what do they into battle - armored cars, infantry, armor, combos of those?

I just don't have a grasp of what an advance German column and/or attack would look like.

[JCFalkenbergIII]

Heres an example

COMBAT TACTICS OF GERMAN MEDIUM TANK COMPANIES

a. General
The following combat instructions for PzKw 4 units have been condensed from a German document. They give an excellent idea of recent enemy tank tactics.
b. Individual Tactics
(1) In view of the small amount of ammunition carried, the gun is normally fired at the halt in order to avoid waste. The machine guns mounted in turret and hull may be effectively fired up to 800 yards against mass targets, such as columns, reserves, limbered guns, etc.
(2) As soon as each target has been put out of action, or as soon as the attacking German infantry are too near the target for tanks to fire with safety, the tanks move forward by bounds of at least 200 to 300 yards. When changing position, drivers must take care to keep correct position in the tactical formation.
(3) Single tanks may be used for supporting action against prepared positions. The tank will normally move from a flank under cover of smoke. Embrasures will be engaged with AP shell. During action, it will be necessary to blind neighboring defenses by smoke. Tanks will normally fire at prepared defenses from at most 400 yards' range. Assault detachments work their way forward, and once lanes have been cleared through the antitank defenses, the tank will follow and engage the next target. Close cooperation between tank and assault detachment commanders is essential. Light and other signals must be prearranged. Single tanks can also be used in fighting in woods and for protection of rest and assembly areas.
c. Platoon Tactics
(1) During the attack, medium platoons move forward in support of the first wave; one half of the platoon gives covering fire while the other half advances. The whole platoon seldom moves as a body.
(2) The platoon commander directs by radio, and he can control fire by radio or by firing guiding-rounds on particular targets.
(3) Antitank weapons will normally be engaged from the halt. If the nearest antitank weapon can be dealt with by the light platoon, the medium platoon will engage more distant antitank weapons or blind them. Artillery will be attacked in the same manner as antitank weapons. Enfilading fire is particularly recommended.
(4) If friendly light tanks encounter enemy tanks in the open, the medium platoon should immediately engage them with smoke-shell in order to allow the lights to disengage and to attack the enemy from a flank.
(5) Moving targets and light weapons should be engaged with machine guns or by crushing; mass targets with HE.
(6) Against prepared defenses, the procedure is as mentioned in Paragraph b (3). When the whole platoon is employed, the advance can be made by mutual fire and smoke support. When the position is taken, the platoon covers the consolidation by smoke and fire. The platoon only moves forward again after the enemy weapons in the prepared position have been knocked out.
(7) In street fighting a medium platoon may be employed in the second echelon to give support. Nests of resistance in houses may be cleaned up with the help of the tanks' guns, and lightly built houses can be crushed.
(8) If a front-line tank formation is ordered to hold an objective until the arrival of infantry, protection will be given by the medium platoon, which will take up position on high ground with a large field of fire.
d. Company Tactics
(1) When medium platoons are attached to light companies, they work on the latter's radio frequency, and not on that of their own medium company.
(2) Reserve crews follow immediately behind the combat echelon and move back to join the unit trains only after the beginning of an engagement. They come forward again as soon as the battle is over. Reliefs must be so arranged that drivers take over refreshed before each action, that is, on leaving the assembly area.
(3) The repair section, commanded by an NCO, travels with the combat echelon until the beginning of the battle.
(4) The company commander moves at the head of his company until the leading platoons have gone into action, when he operates from a temporary command post with unimpeded observation of the battle area. Keeping direction and contact are the responsibility of company headquarters personnel while the commander is at the head of his company.
(5) In the attack, the normal formations are a broad wedge (Breitkeil),* or line with extended interval (geoffnete Linie). Effective fire of the whole company may be obtained if the rear elements give overhead fire, or if they fill up or extend the front of their company to form line.
(6) For tank-versus-tank actions, the company, where possible, should be employed as a whole. When enemy tanks appear, they must be engaged at once and other missions dropped. If time allows, the battalion commander will detach the medium platoons that have been attached to light companies and send them back to the medium company. In all situations, medium tanks should endeavor to have the sun behind them.
(7) During the pursuit, the medium company will be employed well forward in order to take full advantage of the longer range of its HE shell.
e. Miscellaneous
(1) The light tank platoon of battalion headquarters company guides the medium company on the march, and when going in to rest or assembly positions. If the medium company is moving on its own, one section of a light tank platoon may be attached to it.
(2) Parts of the antiaircraft platoon of the headquarters company may be allotted to the medium company.
(3) Tank repairmen move directly behind the combat echelons. The recovery platoon is responsible for towing away those tanks which cannot be attended to by the repair section. The recovery platoon is under the orders of the technical officer, who has under his control all equipment and spare-parts trucks of the tank companies, which may follow by separate routes as prescribed by him.
*One platoon echeloned to the right, one to the left, and one in line to form the base of the triangle, with apex forward.
Combat Tactics of German Medium Tank Companies, WWII Tactical and Technical Trends, No. 26, June 3, 1943 (Lone Sentry)

[Kai-Petri]

Originally Posted by clueless_newbie

Well, okay, here goes:

In the war movies concerning the Battle of the Bulge (e.g. Band of Brothers), we are always treated to these heroic American infantry holding off the German panzers.

Now, I know they're just movies, but I'm confused. The Americans seem to be armed with small arms, some grenades, and maybe a machine gun or two. And they're always "critically low on ammunition."

Many of those are old movie cliche´s, I think.

I am personally always amused to see the hospital series where somebody measures the blood pressure just once and says " 120/50 and falling...."

Not wanting to make any jokes about the veterans, just the old movies where heroes just swing from the trees...

[JCFalkenbergIII]

US Military manual "HANDBOOK ON GERMAN MILITARY FORCES" TM-E 30-451 also describes german tactics:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/index.html

[Wolfy]

Originally Posted by clueless_newbie

Great guys, thanks for your replies!

Okay, now how would that work? The Germans began with the artillery barrage, but then what do they into battle - armored cars, infantry, armor, combos of those?

I just don't have a grasp of what an advance German column and/or attack would look like.

The Germans did not attack in their usual fashion in the Ardennes offensive, due to the difficult terrain.

To put it simply, without regard to the different tactics used by the two Panzer armies:

The initial assault were executed by battalions of heavy armed elite infantry that stormed forward positions after the initial barrage (but not in the 5th Army sector).

Armored recon battalions (composed of armored cars and armored halftrack infantry) were the eyes and ears and made contact after a staging area was secure. They generally avoided heavy combat but often engaged US forces long enough for the Panzers to arrive.

Unlike what they show in movies, the Panzers were generally heavily supported by armored infantry, dismounted and mounted on a lot of armored personnel carriers. They also had access to self-propelled artillery that could bring down fire in front of them quickly. The APCs also had a lot of machineguns, mortars, and cannons that would provide support fire.

In the 6th Army sector, however, the Germans attempted to bounce enemy towns with fast tank rushes supported by mounted and dismounted armored infantry. This had mixed results.

[texson66]

Congratulations, CN! You got very good responses to your question. Well done!

[tikilal]

There were also parts of two artillery battalions in Bastogne that provided excellent anti-tank support. The 687th FAB and the 463 PFAB. Here are accounts for both of those units in Bastogne.

Battle of the Bulge: 687th Field Artillery Battalion’s Stand at the Crossroads Cafe » HistoryNet

World War II: 463rd Parachute Field Artillery Battalion in the Battle of Bastogne » HistoryNet

[clueless_newbie]

WOW! Gents, thanks for all the great posts! I'm very impressed by the depth and breadth of your collective knowledge.

[T. A. Gardner]

Originally Posted by Wolfy

The Germans did not attack in their usual fashion in the Ardennes offensive, due to the difficult terrain.

To put it simply, without regard to the different tactics used by the two Panzer armies:

The initial assault were executed by battalions of heavy armed elite infantry that stormed forward positions after the initial barrage (but not in the 5th Army sector).

Most of the lead units were not "elite." They were infantry formations and most of those were composed of troops often of dubious quality. The 18th VG for example (one of the more successful) had about two thirds raw recruits and a massive shortage of ncos. Several of its battalions got lost trying to advance and several others walked in dense columns into US machinegun crossfires losing heavily. It included over 3000 ex-kriegsmarine sailors with no infantry experiance along with 5000 "rehabilitated" (eg., recovered from serious wounds or psychatric problems like shell shock) and most of its remaining troops were "overaged" (read in their late 40s or 50s).
The 560th from Norway had only two regiments present and didn't have any artillery (not that its ex-Norwegean 75mm's dating to 1908 were all that good anyway) and its engineer battalion hadn't arrived. It had never seen combat.
The 326th VG was a mixed bag of replacements having been destroyed in Normandy.
The 277th VG was so short on experianced ncos and officers it had trouble just getting in position for the offensive to begin with.
79th VG was another formation heavy on raw recruits and short on experiance. It also had virtually no motor vehicles.
The 167th had a heavy draft from the disbanded 17th Luftwaffe field division which itself was no stellar performer.
12th VG was a bright spot. This was a redesignated regular infantry division and in pretty good shape.
26th VG was also in decent shape. While most of its replacements were ex-sailors too there was still a good core of ncos and officers along with veteran soldiers to mold the replacements into a cohesive force.
The Panzer divisions were hardly better.
Lehr had been crushed and just one weak mixed battalion of tanks. The 559th Pzjr abt was added (15 Jadgpanther and StuG III) to help things out.
2nd Pz had one "panzergrenadier' battalion mounted on bicycles.
116th had serious command issues as its previous commander who was extremely popular was relieved on loyality issues and replaced with a Nazi sympthizer who was not that competent.
All of the SS divisions present were short tanks and men too.
The worst shortage was in artillery. If it wasn't for the inclusion of several Volksartillery Corps using almost all captured weapons there wouldn't have been much of an opening barrage during this battle by the Germans. Unfortunately, once the Germans started to advance these units, lacking transport, could not keep up so the artillery support quickly dwindled to next to nothing.

Originally Posted by Wolfy

Armored recon battalions (composed of armored cars and armored halftrack infantry) were the eyes and ears and made contact after a staging area was secure. They generally avoided heavy combat but often engaged US forces long enough for the Panzers to arrive.

Only problem was most of the German ones were short on everything. 2nd Pz and Lehr didn't have their units present as they were still reorgainzing in Germany. The infantry divisions had just a company or two each of bicycle mounted troops for this purpose who also formed the division reserve.

Originally Posted by Wolfy

Unlike what they show in movies, the Panzers were generally heavily supported by armored infantry, dismounted and mounted on a lot of armored personnel carriers. They also had access to self-propelled artillery that could bring down fire in front of them quickly. The APCs also had a lot of machineguns, mortars, and cannons that would provide support fire.

What actually happened all-to-often was the infantry being in trucks or riding on the tanks quickly became seperated from their armored vehicles. Lacking artillery support and good communications they were quickly pinned. The panzers would then push on regardless. Battles like that at Krinkelt - Roherath degenerated into cat and mouse combat with panzers trying to hunt down US tanks while trying desperately to stay out of bazooka fire. It usually ended badly for the Germans.

[Slipdigit]

Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner

Most of the lead units were not "elite."

That gaggle from the German 3rd Parachute Division that ran into Lt Bouck's I&R Platoon (394thIR/99thID) at Lanzereth did not exhibit a lot of adept fighting skill as exhibited by their repeated frontal assaults. Those 18 US men on that slight rise inflicted around 400 to 500 casualties on the Germans and pretty much destroyed an entire battalion of the German 9th Parachute Regiment.