From " Tank killers" by Yeide

On Torch

Moreover, invasion planners had given low priority to anti-aircraft formations, often removing them from convoys to make room for other units, a philosophy that resulted in a general shortage of anti-aircraft artillery into 1943.

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If anything, the US had far too many light AA battalions in serivce during the war. Given that a single battalion has a total of 64 weapons in it (SP half M 15 half M 16 towed half M55 quad .50 and half 40mm bofors) that is quite alot of firepower in a single battalion.
I doubt that given the plaucity of Luftwaffe offensive activities even in North Africa that a great deal of AA units were necessary even there.

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Truth is stranger than bullshit!

They were small in number no doubt, but did fairly well regardless. This data from Christer Bergstrom.

at least 151 Allied aircraft shot down and destroyed versus 32 German fighters shot down and destroyed.



Generally, the number of fighters pilot casualties were close to the number of shot down and destroyed fighters. So we can assume, on fairly good grounds, that JG 77 had a victory-to-loss ratio of around 5:1 in Africa.

If what you are quoting from Bergstrom is accurate then German fighters shot down 151 Allied aircraft. That is fighters, bombers, and what-not. Not an unexpected ratio for fighter units on the whole as most of what they shoot down are not enemy fighters.

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Truth is stranger than bullshit!

Fighters are generally more numerous than bombers, therefore, most of the shootdowns would have likely been fighters.

Unfortunately, we shall not know for sure without a listing of individual claims shall we? In the meantime, speculation is a poor substitute.

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Truth is stranger than bullshit!

However, in the Battle of Britain, Hurricanes shot down more bombers than fighters while Spitfires shot down more fighters than bombers.

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

Interesting, perhaps the Spits were told to concentrate on fighters. There were also SBD's & TBF's in operation torch.

Alot of the fighters in operation torch were P-40's. I have a picture of them taking off from the carrier USS Chenango near Casablanca. That must have been a thrill for army pilots. They also used the carrier USS Ranger.

A P-40 with unexperienced pilots is no match for a 109 and experienced pilots.

They also used early model P-38's in North Africa and they did not have the success they did in the Pacific.

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Some excellent pictures and information at this site:

http://www.mts.net/~royb/units_middle_east_1942.html

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

I was doing some more research on this and read about German claims and found this about Gen. Gott being killed the first day on the job in a Bristol Bombay. If he was not killed perhaps Gen. Montgomery would have never gotton his chance.

http://www.answers.com/topic/jagdgeschwader-27

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Correct about P-40's, also P-39's. P-40 was able to outturn 109 below 10.000 ft & I admit having a fair amount of admiration for this plane. Tough it was. Bueligen & Rall didn't think much of the 38, but Macky Steihoff certainly did. It had teething probs early on which it overcame in J & L models. My neighbor flew early & late versions, said it was real hard to roll the early ones. He also said he dove a P-40 & had to stand all his weight on the left rudder to keep it straight.

Dunno if it was used in any serious numbers in Op torch, 38 I mean.

Did find this.

AAF Fighter Numbers Deployed in All Theaters
P-38 in 1941 - None
P-38 in 1942 - 506
P-38 in 1943 - 1,168
P-38 in 1944 - 1,866
P-38 in 1945 - 1,588

From Beevor´s Crete

After the evacuation of Crete was over the "usual" military byrocracy returned. Those who had served in the expeditionary force in Greece and after that on Crete were informed that the expeditionary extra pay was taken out of their salary for the time period they were away from Egypt.

No wonder "black humour" bloomed. There was a rumour that there would be a special evacuation medal for Crete. It would have a carving
EX CRETA on it....

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Sorry reading the Finnish version so not sure what this extra pay actually was called...

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http://p-38online.com/phantom.html

One of the more interesting stories in the MTO was of the phantom P-38, which was causing trouble for many crippled bombers. Beginning on June 4, 1943, a crippled bomber was coming back from a mission against the island of Pantelleria. The crew was considering bailing out of their bomber when they spotted a P-38 coming closer. They immediately relaxed knowing it was coming to their aid. The crew continued to dump extra weight from the aircraft, including the guns and ammunition. Before the crew realized what happened, the P-38 erupted in gunfire and destroyed the B-17. The only survivor was the pilot, Lt. Harold Fisher. Fisher was rescued and was the target of fury from the fighter pilots by suggesting it was a friendly P-38 that shot them down.

Several weeks before Lt. Fisher's ordeal, a P-38 pilot was low on fuel and was lost. He actually made an emergency landing just outside of Sardinia. The pilot was captured before he was able to destroy his aircraft. Italian pilot, Lt. Guido Rossi came up with the idea of using this P-38 against the American bombers. Rossi's strategy was to wait until the bombers made their attacks. Rossi would then take off and scout around for stragglers. He actually used this technique to shoot down several bombers. Until Lt. Fisher, no other crews survived to tell of the P-38 shooting them down.

Intelligence was being gathered and the Allies finally learned the identity of the pilot. They also learned that his wife was living in Allied occupied Constantine. An artist actually used a picture of his wife to paint a nose art picture on Fisher's bomber, and included her name, Gina.

On August 31, a B-17 raid struck Pisa. Fisher was flying among the bombers, and was actually damaged by enemy fighters. Before long, a lone P-38 was approaching and the crew was on high alert.Fisher decided to bait this pilot to see if it was Rossi or not, and began talking about Gine and her location in Constantine. When Fisher was describing intimate details of their "relationship", Rossi lost his cool. He peeled off and began his attack. Fisher ordered all guns to open up on this P-38, and Rossi had to peel off trailing smoke. Rossi intended to ram the bomber, but began breaking up and could not maintain flight. He was able to ditch in the water and survived. Rossi was later picked up and taken prisoner. Fisher was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross medal for his efforts.

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40 Commando R.M The Landing at Termoli - 3rd October 1943.

In the early hours of 3 October 1943, 40 R.M Commando (Lieutenant Colonel J C Manners) with No 3 Commando and elements of the Special Raiding Squadron landed under cover of darkness at Termoli, a seaport town on the Adriatic coast, north of the River Bifurno and behind the German lines. 40 Commando penetrated well into the town before the enemy were alerted and brisk close-quarter fighting with German parachute troops ensued. By 0800 hours, 40 Commando had captured the town and controlled the approaches. So complete was the surprise that German vehicles and motor cyclists still drove into a Commando ambush position until noon. The Germans retaliated in strength and 40 Commando with 3 Commando, the Special Raiding Squadron and some reinforcements from the 78th Division, held off repeated and heavy infantry and armoured counter-attacks by the 26th Panzer Division until eventually the 8th Army linked up with them on 6 October. The operation was an outstanding success. They had overcome all attempts, by a force vastly superior in numbers and armament, to dislodge them and in so doing, won a valuable harbour: they caused the enemy to withdraw from the natural defence line on the Bifumo and denied them the use of the important lateral road from Naples, thereby forcing them to retreat further northwards.

http://www.eastofscotlandbranchrma.o...rabledates.htm

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Between the 10 June 1940 and the 13 May 1943 the Italian Navy lost on the Libyan route approximately a million tons of cargo ships, tens of warships along with their crews and 22735 Italian soldiers.

http://www.regiamarina.it/history.htm

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when fighter command was able to vector more than one squadron of fighters on to an attack at around the same time, it was the tactic to send the faster climbing Spitfires against the fighter escort.

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

Most of the fighting early in the Desert campaign took place on a narrow coastal band between el Agheila and Bardia where the opposing armies chased back and forth across it like horses racing back and forth on a long thin race track. This to and fro chasing was known by some as " Benghazi handicap ".

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Chief of Staff General Franz Halder had also told Rommel, before the latter left for Africa, that a larger force could not be logistically sustained, only to be told "that's your pigeon".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel

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Marmaduke Pattle, the son of English parents, was born in Butterworth, South Africa, on 3rd July, 1914. After leaving school he joined the South African Air Force (SAAF) as a cadet.

In 1936 Pattle moved to England where he joined the Royal Air Force. A member of 80 Squadron he was sent to Egypt two years later to take command of B Flight.

Flight Commander Pattle first saw action in the Second World War on 4th August 1940 over Libya when he shot down two Italian aircraft. He was also downed and it took him two days to walk back to the Egyptian border. Over the next few months Pattle obtained twenty victories during the Desert War.

In November 1940 Pattle was sent to Greece where he took command of 33 Squadron.

He was awarded the DFC in February 1941. Amazingly, his 15 victories thus far were with the obsolete Gloster Gladiator biplane

On 6th April, 1941, the German Army invaded Greece. Pattle and his pilots now had the problem of dealing with the Luftwaffe.

On Sunday 20th April, Pattle led his men against a large formation of Messerschmitt 110 over Eleusis Bay, near Athens. Heavily outnumbered, Pattle was killed while going to the aid of a colleague in difficulties. By the time of his death Marmaduke Pattle had "fifty" *) victories making him the RAF's top-scoring pilots of the war.

Pattle did all his scoring in a period of nine months, against Axis opponents who outnumbered the RAF fighter contingent at all times.

*)That he has never officially been acknowledged as the top scoring fighter pilot is due to the fact that the Air Ministry were never in a position to confirm his victories in aerial combat. The last official score ever credited to Squadron Leader Pattle was for 'twenty-three victories announced in the citation to the awards of a Bar to his Distinguished Flying Cross early in March 1941. No official records of his activities during those last few weeks of intensive operations in Greece exist today, because all official records were destroyed when Greece was evacuated by the British forces towards the end of April 1941.



http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWpattleM.htm

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