* oops double post *

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Der große Stoß Büstenhalter auf Ihrem Kopf!!

KM, I had to beef myself up on this theater as well, Pan Ballentine released a wholes series of books in the 70s, about reader's digest size, they covered all aspects of the war from weapons, to battles, to countries fighting in the war.
Not a definitive book but a more than adequate "Dummy's guide" which assumes you know more than the average guy about military history. They are also cheap (of course second hand) I got mine for £3.

I've got my hands on "Cassino" by Dominick Graham, (1970) and it is a great read.

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Der große Stoß Büstenhalter auf Ihrem Kopf!!

Thanks for reviving the thread, Paul and Knight! I really enjoy it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Knight and Brat, I guess you'll have to add some Italian campaign books to your wish list this Christmas...! I think you could start by John McDonald's "Great Battles of WWII" which is a great book covering many battles in detailed, short and yet a precise way. Many good photographs, maps, battle plans, 3D diagrams and paintings of the battle. Anzio/Cassino is one of the best ones there.

And Paul, we have come to the conclussion in this forum that indeed, general Mark Clark was an idiot. Perhaps graduating from West Point and reaching the rank of general is not a sign of idiocy at all, but doing all what he did at Italy IS... [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

This is true. I have always been a strong advocate of the big naval guns. The only problem here is that Kesselring had a few attack planes, bombs and midget submarines to attack the fleet and make it pay dearly to be there. No the exact same case than in the Baltic nor Normandy.

Patton temporarily under command of VI Army Corps? Do not think so at all. Mark Clark wouldn't have allowed some one as bright and as charming and rebell as Patton to serve under his orders - nor I think Patton would have agreed. Kesselring precisely claimed that "if Patton would have been in command he would have taken Rome and attacked the X Army by the rear, since there wasn't a single German soldier between Cassino and Vienna".

And just to add that it was Mark Clark the one who told Lucas to dig in and wait, preventing a new Salerno. And even if Nine is right about the limited forces that landed there, it was better to achieve little things because of the surprise factor and the momentum advancing towards anywhere, than sitting there waiting for Kesselring to mass ten divisions in front of you... [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img] (That was supported by Clark, in complete disagreement and disobedience with his superior, general Alexander). [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Do you have any references Freddy that say the Anzio landing was adequately provided for to the satisfaction of the commanders? Re-supply was always going to be a problem especially because of the restricted ships and crafts allocated. There were directives to start transferring for Normandy.

There’s a useful map at http://userpages.aug.com/mcintire/prop/latium.jpg

It’s a modern one, not a battle map as such, but it does show, given the circumstances, what little value taking the city of Rome was in relation to preventing or at least inhibiting German troop movements up and down to the Gustav.

Even when the breakout eventually was achieved, Clark sent only a token force to the edge of the Albani hills and concentrated on entering Rome, while the Germans waltzed along route 7 with impunity.

No.9

Well, it was just a thought, Friedrich. I do passionately believe that someone other than Lucas could've done a lot better. Probably someone with a lot more determination would've insisted that more than two divisions were needed for an "end run" like Anzio.

Don't get me wrong, No. 9; I'm not the president of the Georgia chapter of the Mark Clark Fan Club or anything. But I'm just too charitable to see people as "stupid", and besides, Clark wouldn't have gotten where he was if he had been "stupid".

My personal favorite Allied commander in Italy is Alexander--I guess, partially, because that's my last name, too. But entirely aside from possible familial connections, Alexander was a darn fine combat general who was equally skilled at retreats (at Dunkirk and Burma) and offensives (as, for example, in finishing off the Axis in North Africa; he did, after all, take the title "Earl of Tunis" after his greatest victory). He may not have been a "Great Captain", but he was a real professional who got the job done, whatever it was he was called upon to do.

Yours,
Paul

Actually Paul, perhaps ‘idiot’ is the wrong term for Clark if you want to be accurate, but I think true to say he was a person of limited capacity in respect of command astuteness. He was no great war-horse who rose through the ranks by battlefield distinction. Everything suggests he should have been/stayed an admin man. I’m sure he was a ‘good ‘ole boy’ with his superiors, but IMHO, he was egocentric and over ambitious at the expense of the men he commanded.

He titled his biography ‘Calculated Risk’ which could sum him up quite well if you take it he got it wrong all the time. The only time Clark went out on a limb was in seizing Rome, which, as he confesses in his book, he had every intention of doing from the beginning, irrespective. Apart from this there is little to show he ever thought for himself, but quite a bit to show his arrogance to those he did not have to, or was not ordered to, kiss-up to. I’ve sited this before, but to restate, before Torch (America’s first ‘biggie’), he was sent to receive a briefing at British MI6 (Secret Intelligence Service). As this was very important, Stewart Menzies, the head of MI6, conducted the briefing personally. Clark started to fidget then looked at his watch, said he had to leave and walked out! If he had been a British officer he’d have been filling sandbags the next day.

Can’t agree only the best commanders are made generals, sorry.

I also can’t heap too much praise on Alexander. I by no means under-rate him, (quite like him actually), and when it comes to ‘good ‘ole boys’ and charisma he wrote the book. By all accounts he was talented and was an awfully, awfully nice man (they wanted him for Ike’s deputy), but, the downside is that occasionally even an awfully, awfully nice man needs to ‘kick a little arse’. One such occasion was when Clark was engineering his advance into Rome. Attempting to cover his butt, Clark was selective in his reports to Alexander with ambiguity to achieve replies which could be construed as consent. Alexander should have been dogmatic in objectives set Clark with no deviation, or else!

You rightfully say, Alexander was successful in North Africa and Burma. Now ask yourself who his field commanders were? Montgomery, Patton, Slim, Stillwell, Merrill, Wingate – well?

No.9

[ 19. December 2003, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: No.9 ]

As I stated above, Clark of course, was not and idiot. Graduating from West Point and getting some stars on his shoulders is no sign of idiocy. But then Mark Clark was a very incompetent field commander, strategist and tactician. Add a huge ego to all that and then you'll have a general who disobbeys his superiors and doesn't listen to his subordinates' advices. The strategic blunders that he made, when deploying and managing his forces in Italy, cost the Allied war effort dearly. And field marshal Alexander, who was a very capable strategist, was - as nine said - a too nice man. Being such a charming officer, he succeeded in cooperating with Slim, Monty, Patton, Bradley and others - who, even if egotistical, were realistic. But when he came up with someone as indolent and pedantic as Clark, he was too nice to him. Clark needed someone above him who told him: "You're a bloody idiot and you just do as I say!". Alexander's main flaw was that he didn't give orders, but suggestions. Suggestions that a realistic general listens to. But of course, someone who believes himself a new Napoléon and Alexander the Great... [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

I agree with you that Lucas wasn't precisely the best general to do the job, even if he was a master with artillery. Kesselring's troops paid very expensive Lucas' genious for artillery managing. But Lucas didn't advance from the beach head because Clark told him not to, because at Salerno, Clark had advanced and been almost defeated. Alexander suggested Clark to do neither in either case...

You're right, nine, about the logistical problems that the Allies would have experienced if advancing through Anzio. The lack of ships and support because of D-day was not helping matters. And even if Rome was not strategically important at all, Albani mountains and the route to Rome were, and having pushed through them would have made Kesselring very nervous, thus, weakening his position at Cassino. Which was the very intention of the landing at Anzio!

But again, Italy is the perfect theatre for the what-ifs...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I read of the Flyover Bridge at Anzio. Can someone tell more of the bridge and the important battles around it?

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This was a concrete overpass where an east-west road crossed the main road to Albano in the Anzio beachhead.

'After The Battle' magazine featured this bridge in their 'Anzio' issue some years ago. The battle-scarred bridge could still be seen at that time but sadly, I believe it has since been demolished.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Found it - in issue 52 of 'After The Battle' .

The overpass was on the Via Anziate and was the focus of very heavy fighting during Operation 'Fischfang'; the major German counteroffensive of 16-20 February 1944.

The US 179th Infantry came under determined attack from a force comprising parts of Infanterie-Regiments 145, 725 and 741. The overpass became a crisis-point as it was less than one mile from the final beachhead line. Some Panzers actually reached the bridge and in response the area came under fire from the entire US Corps artillery and XII Air Support Command who dropped 830 tons of ordnance.

Tanks of the US 1st Armored Regiment arrived to fight off further attacks.

The 'ATB' article contains several photos of the overpass including an aerial view showing the knocked-out Panzers. The article was prepared in 1976 and contains a photo of the surviving bridge supports which were demolished shortly afterwards to make way for a new highway bridge.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Yes, the flyover has gone. It is one of the things my father remembers well, and I went looking for it last year, to no avail. There isn't much left at Anzio, but I didn't get a chance to explore the gullies and nullahs, and front line area, when I was last there - I was told it was all built on, but from a brief recce there is still much out in the country. Am saving that one for another day.

There is much more left at Cassino; but you have to get off the beaten track. Last year we found sangars (infantry positions), mortar pits, MG positions etc. all within a short walk of where all the tourists go to the abbey, but not another visitor in sight - bliss!

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Paul Reed
Webmaster - Battlefields of WW2- http://www.ww2battlefields.info
D Day Ancestors: The British Army in Normandy - http://www.ddayancestors.com

Reading bits from Nigel Nicolson´s "Alex"

In this book it is mentioned that the Germans would have escaped the subsidiary routes throught the mountains ( Valmente ) so that trying to cut the German´s route from the Anzio beach head would not have been very succesful in the end...(??). So one might as well go for Rome.

Anyone heard of this one before?

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Kai,

Its one thing to march your troops over subsidiary routes, but to move your Armour, Guns and heavier trucks you need a well made road with bridges capable of carrying their weight.

While the Italian main roads were excellent, their secondary network was deplorable.

I've never heard of any good reasons of heading for Rome, except from those trying to excuse Clark's actions.

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Whe're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ - 6 Australian Infantry Div, Bardia January 1941

Monte Camino, or what is left of it, is irreverently referred to as Million Dollar Hill.

A week later, after dark of December 2nd, 600 Allied guns in the valley began the greatest artillery concentration since El Alamein. This artillery expenditure earned for the target the popular name of "Million Dollar Mountain."

http://www.kwanah.com/txmilmus/36div...on/million.htm

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General Alexander sought unsuccessfully to have the death penalty reinstated for desertion as the battle wore on....

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3487075.stm

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Kai, re desertion in that area, a very good insight remains the book "Naples '44" by Norman Lewis. Lewis was a British Intelligence officer assigned to Naples and describes his experiences with the military, civil authorities, unofficial authorities and the locals. Other than desertion there were high instances of venereal disease, corruption and black-market.

Re Cassino, for the visitor the new museum is of some interest though I found it disappointing insofar as it is about the history of the region and only part covers WWII.

No.9

Norman Lewis' book is indeed a classic and well worth reading.

And where the h*ll have you been, No. 9 ?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

”where the h*ll have you been, No.9 ?”

Ah yes, hello Martin. Been cruising the net with my trusty sidekick, Wilkinson, trying to spread a little peace and understanding among fans of the Third Reich. Sometimes I achieved ’peace on’, and sometimes……
click the pic for sound

Seems relatively quiet these days, regarding WWII history - proper history that is, the ‘gamers’ seem as active as ever. Perhaps popular interest peaked a bit last year being the 60th anniversary of the end of the war, certainly the MOD have formally drawn a line. [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

I’ve been over to Italy with Veterans a number of times, and am considerably further forward with unravelling more facts of events. Will be back again in a couple of months, but it becomes increasingly hard for the originals. [img]graemlins/poppy.gif[/img] BTW, Gerry Chester, (North Irish Horse), is still on the web from time to time. He’s currently visiting his daughter in Bali where he says net access is “slow”.

Expect you’re still busy with two engined Merlin’s, which I’m sure you are. In the course of your travels, would appreciate any tips on the whereabouts of a couple of H/B remainders – well, two are, one may not be yet. The positive remainders are ’Commando Dispatch Rider’ and ’From Omaha to the Scheldt’, and the maybe not yet is ’Attain by Surprise’. The first two turn-up on eBay, new, starting at £7 - £9, which means somewhere they are selling for £3 - £4, but where?

Regards to all.
No.9

Thanks for the update, No.9...don't lose touch !

I do indeed still haunt London's remaindered bookstores, so I'll keep my eyes peeled. [img]graemlins/salute.gif[/img]

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

From Kesselring´s memoirs...

Quite apart from the fact that the Army Group was not in possesion of data on which to make far-reaching decision on 14 or 15 May, unexpected difficulties arose in bringing up the 26th panzers and sending them into action. When on top of this the 94th Infantry division , in disobediance to my express orders, assembled its reserves in the coastal sector instead of the Petrella massif the gaps created in the front on the massif could not be closed. This meant the Alpine troops of the French Expeditionary Force had a clear pitch.

On the battle a site telling facts in short

Fourth Battle at Cassino

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