Operation 'Anvil', launched on August 15th 1944 between Cannes and Toulon, after the capture of Rome had realeased several forces.

My question is: was it worth it? Did it contribute to accelerate the German débâcle at Normandy? Did it affect the Allied push and momentum at Italy —imagining that there was in fact a momentum, completely lost by Clark's capture of Rome? [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

I'm curious about it.

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

My opinion is that it was a formality in the implementation of tactical warfare. The Allies needed those units fighting in Normandy for the push towards Germany. The Italian campaign was a stalemate even though Rome was taken. The Germans were already withdrawing on both fronts. Anvil just filled the void left behind. It provided consistency on the frontlines. No major impact.

__________________

American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

If it had taken place a couple of months earlier it would have mattered. I think this was also the idea in the first place. In August it probably served more as a means of propaganda.

__________________

I thought it was Operation Dragoon, and that Anvil was it's former name, perhaps your's is the correct one, I know one was the original name.

And it did serve something of a purpose, perhaps only for propoganda, but that force did eventually link up with the Normandy force near Strasbourg. They kept the underbelly of the Normandy force safe, had any German forces been shifted there, and had the Normandy landings bogged down in the bocages then those Dragoon/Anvil forces could have played a major role in starting an encirclemt of the Germans.

__________________
- Your freindly neighborhood cynic

"....it was Eisenhower who put a temporary halt to ANVIL. In view of the strengthened German defenses in Normandy, he judged that OVERLORD would need all of the amphibious lift available in the European area to ensure its success. His concerns, together with the general shortage of amphibious vessels, especially LSTs (landing ship, tanks), and the demands of the Pacific theater for such shipping, finally led Allied leaders in April 1944 to cancel ANVIL.

ANVIL, however, proved difficult to bury. General Devers, as commander of the U.S. Services of Supply in the Mediterranean, refused to reallocate the supplies and equipment that had already been gathered for the landing. At the same time he instructed Lt. Gen. Alexander M. Patch, a recently arrived veteran of the Guadalcanal Campaign in the Pacific, to continue planning for the southern France assault as the new Seventh Army chief. Thus, in the summer of 1944, after General Wilson's latest Italian offensive had run its course and more critical, after Eisenhower's OVERLORD forces had bogged down in the hedgerows of Normandy, the possibility and even the need for ANVIL again became evident. With additional shipping from the Pacific and northern European theaters available, the Allied command officially resurrected it on 24 June. But it was not until 11 August, four days before the landing was scheduled that the Allied high command gave Wilson final approval for the assault, and even this was only over the strenuous objections of Winston Churchill. "

Southern France

__________________

After this operation, the Germans retreated from all southern france and lost many men because of the rsistance and the aircrafts attacks. Also, it allowed the allies to sent more equipment to western europe, and it allowed the arrival of two new armies of 260000 men each (US 7th army and french first army or army B).

Anvil invasion had to be met, and was as successful as Curchill fainting an attack inNorway kept thousands of wehrmacht troops needlessly posted their, ditto for pattons ghost army kept troops at the Pas Calais region

Must correct my view a bit here as it does seem the Germans did lose a good number of pieces of artillery, vehicles and men during the retreat from Southern France. Now they could not be used in later phases of war like the battle of the Bulge.

__________________

Anvil had a considerable impact and accelerated the end of the war. I doubt the allies would have cleaned up the North in a few months with the Germans being able to bring reinforcements from the South. Many valuable men landed in the Provence . History and media may not have focussed on these soldiers like it was the case for D-Day, but their goals and hopes were just the same and they owe (no matter their nationality) our gratitude just as much as any other soldiers who landed in Normandy.

__________________

I feel i should add that almost 1/3rd of the supplies for the battles in northern France where brought up from the port at Marseilles as well as creating the loss of an estimated 125.000 German troops that could no longer be used in defending Germany.

__________________
"When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." -General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson
"The conqueror is always a lover of peace; he would prefer to take over our country unopposed."-Karl von Clausewitz

Correct. The tardy capture and restoration of the Atlantic ports, particularly Antwerp, made Marsallies more valuable than anyone anticipated. Also it was faster to bring the units that formed the US 7th Army and the 1st French Army through the south than through the over used Mulberry ports at Normandy. Supplying them via Normandy and the few captured Atlantic ports before November would have been out of the question. Supplying Bradleys and Montgomerys army groups was difficult enough, Adding two more armys without Marsallies would have made the supply situation impossible.

Not only was Marsallies captured a month before Antwerp was it was fully operational in a few weeks. It was two more months, mid November, before Antwerp was restored to the needed capacity.

__________________
I forgot my password, can I use yours?

That would have been the ideal way to supply Patton I guess, if the problem otherwise was how to divide the supplies landed in Normandy area. So perhaps Anvil should have been done at the same time with Overlord, thus perhaps keeping Das Reich in its place as well.?

__________________

The problem is that they weren't so much ships and that many french forces who were to participate to anvil were fighting in Italy on the same time.

Notice it was also the biggest franch naval operation of the war with 34 war ships including 1 battleship, 8 cruisers, 5 destroyers and 5 torpedo-boats. They were commanded by admiral Lemonnier, with also amiral Jaujard and Auboyneau (commanders of the cruisers divisions) and admiral Battet (responsible for logistic). The french navy in 1944-45 was composed of about 250 ships and it's weight was 400,000 t (us navy = more than 4,000,000) including the "jean Bart", damaged and unable to go to battle.

But the only naval victory of a french fleet occured during the war against the kingdom of Siam at Ko-chang and it was Vichy navy (and it is a cery small battle).

__________________

That would have been ideal. The trick was providing the amphib boats/ships for both. After Neptune was completed and the artificial ports operationing the amphib ships were moved back to the Med, and on to the Pacific. On the gameboard I saw a player use Rangers, Brit Commandos, which did not require amphib ships in the game rules, and airbourne to sieze Toulon. It was a high risk operation but it allowed him to bring the infantry and armor in without amphibs. Probablly not a good model of the real world, but he was thinking.

A alternate would be to capture Marsallise/Toulon in January 1942 instead of the Shingle operation aimed at Rome. Having a large enclave in southern France might supplement Overlord.

__________________
I forgot my password, can I use yours?