Italy´s surrender 1943- Ike and a mistake?

Kai-Petri · #1 (**permalink**) June 9th, 2006, 08:17 AM

8th September 1943

Italy has signed an unconditional armistice with the Allies, General Dwight D Eisenhower has announced.

When the surrender was finally signed on 3 September in Sicily, it was agreed to keep it secret until the Allied invasion of Italy was well under way.

9/9/1943 Allied forces land in Salerno and Taranto, Italy

9/11/1943 German Army occupies Italy

Could this situation have been used in a better way? Did Ike make a mistake by rushing the news?

Ali Morshead · #2 (**permalink**) June 9th, 2006, 11:56 AM

I would assume Ike wanted to minimize the number of defenders, taking any Italian forces out of the equation probably seemed a good idea at the time.

The Germans however being traditionally efficient, had plans and enough time to cover the landing beaches and clear up any Italian units who showed signs of fight.

Hawkerace · #3 (**permalink**) July 16th, 2006, 05:36 AM

How did germany have troops to occupy italy all of a sudden, did the come from france or balkans or russia? seem pretty quick to get some troops into italy 2 days after the invasions really began?

Ali Morshead · #4 (**permalink**) July 16th, 2006, 07:15 AM

??

As the Allies had landed in Sicily in July 1943, and Sicily is only a short boat trip from Italy it would be just basic common sense to have troops available to defend the back door to Europe.

Eisenhower broadcast an offer of peace to the Italians on/about 25 July, so Germany would be fully aware of the possible Surrender.

The Surrender was signed on Sept 3 , 11 hours after the Eighth Army invaded the toe of Italy at Reggio & San Giovanni.

Hitler had ordered his generals to prepare for an Italian surrender, and to be prepared to sieze Iatly. Operation Alarich, later Achse, was designed to occupy the Italian mainland and neutralize the Italian Army. Within a few weeks 10-12 Divisions had moved into Italy.

The units in Italy were reformed from Units destoyed at Stalingrad or other parts of the Eastern Front including 29PzGr, 24Pz, 16Pz, 3PzGr,44HuD Inf. 26Pz came from France, converted from 23 Inf. 15PzGr & HG Pz fought in Nth Africa & Sicily with 1 & 2 Fj flying in from France.

While experienced, they were poorly equipped, the best equipped Panzer Div, the 16th, had 66 tanks & 42 Assault guns.

Kesselering had 29PzGr & 26Pz in Calabria, 16Pz was at Salerno, north of Salerno were HG Pz & 15PzGr reforming after Sicily, 3PzGr & 2 FJ were in the Rome area & 1 Fj around Foggia in the East.
Rommel commanded in the North with 51 Gebirgs Korps (65 & 305 Inf Divs), 87 Gebirgs Corps (76 & 94 Inf, II SS Pz Korps (1SS & 24Pz)with Armee Reserve (44 & 71 Inf)

90th Light was on Sardinia & 16SS on Corsica

MARNE · #5 (**permalink**) July 16th, 2006, 08:21 AM

Ali,

Don't forget Kesselring also had the formidable Hermann Goring Division under his command shortly after Sicily was considered a lost cause. Not to mention the Hermann Goring Division was in the area of Salerno during the invasion on the 18th, of Sept. 1943.

This is well known from documentation I have in relation to the US 3rd Inf. Division during the Salerno invasion as the 30th Infantry Reg't. ran into and also most completely whipped out the Hermann Goring Recon. Bn. at Acerno the first italian city to fall to the U.S. near the beachhead.

On top of this division, Kesselring also had the 71st and 362nd Inf. Div.'s. these division were used extensively during the Anzio operation in January 1944.

Regards,
MARNE

Ali Morshead · #6 (**permalink**) July 16th, 2006, 09:05 AM

Dear Rock

In many places HG is considered an abbreviation for the Hermann Goering Division.

The landing at Salerno took place on 9 September, so the HG being in the area by the 18th isnt unusual.

I'm sure that 36 Texas & 45 Thunderbolt would hand the hounour of capturing the first Italian town to the 3rd. I assume Maiori, Paestum, Albanella & Altavilla dont rate as Cities. Not forgetting the Commonwealth troops that had been in Southern Italy for a week before the Salerno landing and had captured Salerno & Vietri in the Beachead on D+1
On the 16th of Sept 5 Army troops made contact with 8th Army, and the 3rd Div capture of Acerno on 22nd Sept was more in the Advance to Naples than in defense of the beachead.

5 months after Salerno, German forces had relocated and 10th & 14th Armees had swapped units many times.

MARNE · #7 (**permalink**) July 16th, 2006, 09:21 AM

Sorry.... I read your post but, must have overlooked the 'HG" for Hermann Goring...

As for Acerno...I stand corrected.. thank you!

Regards,
MARNE

Hawkerace · #8 (**permalink**) July 16th, 2006, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ali Morshead:
??

As the Allies had landed in Sicily in July 1943, and Sicily is only a short boat trip from Italy it would be just basic common sense to have troops available to defend the back door to Europe.

Eisenhower broadcast an offer of peace to the Italians on/about 25 July, so Germany would be fully aware of the possible Surrender.

The Surrender was signed on Sept 3 , 11 hours after the Eighth Army invaded the toe of Italy at Reggio & San Giovanni.

Hitler had ordered his generals to prepare for an Italian surrender, and to be prepared to sieze Iatly. Operation Alarich, later Achse, was designed to occupy the Italian mainland and neutralize the Italian Army. Within a few weeks 10-12 Divisions had moved into Italy.

The units in Italy were reformed from Units destoyed at Stalingrad or other parts of the Eastern Front including 29PzGr, 24Pz, 16Pz, 3PzGr,44HuD Inf. 26Pz came from France, converted from 23 Inf. 15PzGr & HG Pz fought in Nth Africa & Sicily with 1 & 2 Fj flying in from France.

While experienced, they were poorly equipped, the best equipped Panzer Div, the 16th, had 66 tanks & 42 Assault guns.

Kesselering had 29PzGr & 26Pz in Calabria, 16Pz was at Salerno, north of Salerno were HG Pz & 15PzGr reforming after Sicily, 3PzGr & 2 FJ were in the Rome area & 1 Fj around Foggia in the East.
Rommel commanded in the North with 51 Gebirgs Korps (65 & 305 Inf Divs), 87 Gebirgs Corps (76 & 94 Inf, II SS Pz Korps (1SS & 24Pz)with Armee Reserve (44 & 71 Inf)

90th Light was on Sardinia & 16SS on Corsica

Oh okay thanks

von_noobie · #9 (**permalink**) June 7th, 2007, 11:36 AM

Just something i heard once, Although many beleive Rommel to be a bad General (I beleive he was a great one at Corps level), I heard that when Italy went to surrender he was able to stop 10 Italian divisions from laying down there arms or joining the Allies.

Is this true and if so did it help out.

Kai-Petri · #10 (**permalink**) June 8th, 2007, 08:05 AM

I always thought Rommel had truly bad relationships with Italian commanders so would think he´d never convinvce them of anything really...