As I stated in the first post, there was nothing Germany could do to change the outcome of the war. The only real wonder weapon was the atomic bomb. I am just saying that they could have done far better with their resources than what they did. Both Guderian's panzer build up and Galland's fighter build up(to include the 262 role) could have had a far greater effect than what they were wasted on. Citadel and Bodenplatte were not only failures, but even if they were successful, would still have been a waste. Galland was a pretty good fighter leader and should have been given free reign on the use of all Luftwaffe fighter resources to include the 262 as a bomber destroyer only and not a poor jabo. Also in 1944 the Meteor MkI was rated at about 415 MPH or 675 KPH. Your figures are for the MkIII, which really did not go operational until 45. At that point the allies could have been flying Hurricanes and still win the air war.
Everybody gives credit to German creative Engineering and i don't have a problem with that and German weapons were very unique innovations but it was America's Plutonium and Uranium bombs that were the game changers.. The Germans never had a single weapon system that could kill more people at one time as Americas "A" bombs.. Even if the Germans could have produced the "A" bomb when America did they could have "never" been able to out produce America making these types of monster weapons..! No German sub-sonic Jet could out run the .50 cal bullet which travel at 3,000 ft per. sec = 2,000 mph. Hitler should have found another way to support his ally rather than declare war on America..
I am not an aviation expert myself though I visited US Air Force Museum in San Diego several times and got an idea about air war. My opinion (it might be insufficent , faulty or seem prejudiced to aviation experts if so say it ) : Neither ME-262 nor any of miracle weapon designs of Luftwaffe drawing board during war were "miracle war winners" so desired by German apologists and defeated veterans of war later vented their what if scenarios in their post war memoirs. The problems of Luftwaffe and reasons of Allied victory over Europe are several. It can not be underestimated to the correct super jet engined aircraft concept. Right after 1941-42 period (when tide turned to Allied favor) and even actually before then Luftwaffe strategy and infrastructure were distrupted with several faulty decisions , qualitive and quantitive superiorty and correct decisions of RAF , USAAF and German weakness in resources especially in fuel. From Hitler's insistance to convert ME-262 design to bomber to constant production of obselete bomber models and training crews even when it was obvious that there wouldn't be any need for a Strategic Bomber Force for Luftwaffe (there was before the war but after 1941 it was too late for that. Only Nazi retaliation mindset allowed production of slow and vulnerable bombers to go on ) and Allied Strategic Bombing Campaign which forced Luftwaffe to return Germany to defend Reich airspace problems of Luftwaffe were numerous. Manpower was another problem. As war got to its inevitable conclusion ground maintenence units of Luftwaffe as well as several trainee pilots were pushed into ground service. For example during Rhine Battles in 1944-1945 and Battle of Seelow Heights in April 1945 several German paratroopers captured by Allies turned out to be Luftwaffe mechanics and ground support personel. They were given a few months of training and pushed to front. The result was inevitable decline and collapse of aircraft maintenence , several accidents cost valuable pilot lives and lowering morale. Fuel shortage was the bane of Germans. Pilot training of Germans were terrible during last years of war due to fuel shortage and lack of veteran training pilots. (most veteran pilots of Luftwaffe were kept on front until they were killed. A real waste of trained manpower resource but hey at least after the war they could claim inflated enemy kills to bolster their knights in air image ) A lot of German claims that "if only we had ME-262 six months ago" is not beliavable. With which pilots they would fly ? Did they even have fuel reserves sufficent by then ? In 1945 so called super jet aircrafts of Luftwaffe were pulled by oxen carts in make shift airfields with damaged runaways. Quality control was terrible. Several times ME-262 malfunctioned during flights and caused aborting missions and losing aircraft and personel. ME-262 design just like other German figthers had an unreliable landing gear , causing multiple accidents in runaways. More over maybe Allied jet models were inferior compared to ME-262 here and there. (I never compared height , climbing , speed etc between early jet models ) But with Germans pushed their jet program do you really think Allied Air Forces stay idle and let air superiorty (a strategic necessarity to land Europe) slip their fingers ? Or say Germans had super jets and we surrender etc ? Gloster Meteor was a fine jet propelled machine (it performed well against V-1 Flying bombs) and US F-84 program was quite advanced also. They would be mass produced also and at the hands of trained pilots with longer flight hours with reliable ground services without fuel shortages. Claims of Galland , Cajus Bekker or other losers of war "if we had ME-262 earlier..." are not valid for me. Political and military system they served delivered those miracle weapons late they tended to forget and Allies had much more slow , propelled but numerous war winning machines due to their correct strategic decisions , foresight and plus they had also their own jet propolsion programs. Germans couldn't convert their Luftwaffe to jet engines overnight even if they wished. Allies at the other had victory with slower older design machines. Allies could sustain their air forces much better and longer than Germans. That's what counted. Not just mano to mano aircraft dogfights and superior design.
I don't recall anyone including Galland stating that if they had the jets sooner they had a chance to win the war. If I remember right Galland said something along the lines of If we had the jets earlier and only produced and trained for bomber interception we may have been able to force a temporary suspension of the bomber offensive. He then said this would probably have resulted in the first atom bomb being dropped on Berlin. And like Green Slime stated above, the allies had no need of jets. Not to mention that regardless of what was in the air, the red army was also problematic.
I'm no expert but you made some very good points but i believe that if it had became a sense of urgency on the allies part the P-80 Shooting Star would have turn out to be the winner in the Jet race not just because of the guy would built the plane but the engine at the time was so much better from what i have read ..
When it comes to the P-51 vs ME-262, they were both great aircraft, however, overall the mustang was better in more areas. Statistically the mustang could turn tighter, fly longer, and could take more damage. The mustang had a higher service ceiling as well, and that altitude could be converted into speed. The mustang also provided the pilots with unobstructed vision but the 262 had a canopy with the supports going across it denying vision in those areas. Also, yes, the mustangs shot down 4 ME-262's, but that is in combat, meaning that there were 4 262's shot down in dogfights with mustangs. However, the mustangs protected the bombers they were meant to defend very well. The 262 however did have greater speed, seeing as it was a jet fighter, and it also had 4 20mm cannons or 4, 30mm cannons, depending on which version you look at. This provided a great speed-to-firepower ratio, meaning that the boom-and-zoom tactic would theoretically be very effective. The 262 had 3 real problems though. 1 was that, while there were plenty of 262's made, they came so late in the war that their infrastructure had been all but decimated. Because of this, there wasn't enough refined fuel for all of them. Even if they had enough fuel, their 2nd problem would have not stood the test. The 2nd problem was that by the time the 262 came around, most of the experienced pilots in the Luftwaffe had been shot down and either killed or captured. Because of this, they were sending rookie 262 pilots against veteran mustang pilots. And the 3rd problem was more of a problem with the plane. The 262 couldn't accelerate or decelerate quickly without the engines becoming fireballs, so they were easy prey when landing and taking off.
A lot has been written about Hitler insisting the 262 be used as a bomber but I haven't read about it actually being done. Was it?
IMO the ME-262 was potentially a great aircraft but never came close to achieving that potential. The engine reliability issue being the biggest problem in that regard.
In what I have read Hitler did insist that initially they focus upon aircraft that could be used as tactical bombers and I believe there was attempts by 262's bombing Remagen Bridge (though that may have been the purpose built Arado bomber, or even both). The assertion that this greatly delayed deployment as a air superiority fighter are overblown. Hitler saw the prototype and made his decision, but development problems had a greater impact on when it was available for actual deployment in either role.
German author Jan Horn has self-published a history of KG 51 who deployed the Me 262 in the bomber role in France during August 1944 for the first time. The aircraft didn't even have a bomb sight and were too fast to accurately jettison their payloads. Very evident also was the unreliability of the engines and the futility of flying sorties piecemeal.. October 2013 issue of Flugzeug Classic featured the recollections of 5./KG 51 Me 262 jet pilot Egon Hummel. In February 1945, he found himself strafing and bombing US troop and re-supply columns ..(my translation..) "..Strapped into the cockpit for the first time with the canopy closed and locked was a thrilling sensation. The aircraft flew beautifully although our combat-radius (endurance) was limited. The Jumos were real 'gas-guzzlers' ('Spritfresser'), there was never more than 45-minutes flying time possible and as a pilot you always had to factor in a reserve for safety so that in practise you couldn't even stay airborne for the full 45 minutes. The speed of the jet was of course phenomenal but it was very possible to approach the sound barrier in a dive which meant having to juggle with the throttles and that was something that you couldn't really do - on two occasions I had an engine flame-out.."
very good points ! new technology, faster, etc...yes, how could it be an effective bomber or fighter without mucho training? and if the gas goes fast, you can't get mucho training.....?
One of the later versions of the P-47 was the fastest piston-engine fighter available, it could go over 460 mph and was used to chase down V1s.
