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RAF - SOE in France 1940-45 Information Please

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by meonthebay, Nov 22, 2003.

  1. meonthebay

    meonthebay Member

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    November 25, 2003
    Hi
    Big error and I am sorry. That should have read that he returned to ENGLAND in March 1943.
    M R D Foot - "SOE - The Special Operations Executive - France 1940-45 - first edition, page 196. Also named in Nigel West's book, "Secret War: The story of SOE" - page 111 in hardcover, page 140 in paperback.
    Kew has Special Operations Executive Personnel File 1939-1946, for him, with a file number, indicating the records are public. I think I may have someone in England who will be able to visit Kew for me and check this out.
    Cheers
    Shirley
    PS - Air Ministry - A.M. - makes sense to me! :confused:
     
  2. meonthebay

    meonthebay Member

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    November 25, 2003
    Forgot to mention he was awarded the Croix de Guerre - year unknown, but the RAF records give an authority for it: A 477506/42/PTI (not sure about the PTI - copy is faded but the other numbers are right). My next plan is to find out why it was awarded to him.
    Shirley
     
  3. OX and BUCKS Light Infrantry

    OX and BUCKS Light Infrantry Member

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    Shirley,

    So glad that your research is progressing well.

    You are correct in saying that No 9 gives good advice [​IMG] (Thanks for the info 9)

    I have only just found this web site and the information that other members have is fantastic.
    Without them I would still be flapping about 'getting nowhere fast'
    Regards Graham
     
  4. meonthebay

    meonthebay Member

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    November 26, 2003
    I just found the website this month and it is fantastic. Special thanks to No. 9, whoever you are! Your advise has been so very helpful.
    More information today about other books that make mention of my cousin:
    F Section SOE by Marcel Ruby
    Nancy Wake by Russell Braddon
    Inside SOE by Cookridge
    Off to the library!!!!!
    Shirley
     
  5. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    [​IMG]

    Ahem………….yes, well, thank you………just a cog trying to help, glad it’s useful.

    Shirley, I can’t add any book titles as you already probably have most specifics. However, if you’ve been centring your search on your cousin’s name, as he appears to have been charged with setting up Monkeypuzzle, I would suggest concentrating on that.

    I don’t know too much about Monkeypuzzle except that it was one of the networks I believe designed for co-ordination and communications. Raymond, as it’s head, probably would have been under deep cover as a member of the community in/around Tours. From his upbringing possibly in the hotel business? Rather than conduct activities such as sabotage, I would say his role was to liase with and recruit friendly French to set-up safehouse, stores, conduits, informants, and of course intelligence – a classic underground civilian network. The network may have been centred in Tours but I believe would have extended far outside this area.

    Raymond would have had contact with the French offensive resistance, but I don’t think his station would have had much if anything to do with direct offence. Possibly they had some tie with MI9 for trafficking escapees, but I can find no reference to Monkeypuzzle by MI9 – this of course proves nothing either way. His station was closed before any of the Jedburgh assault teams were deployed (or SAS) so there is no connection there. Tours was a busy movement centre so a good choice for implanting a ‘stranger’ such as himself. Another activity preceding his arrival was Jewish deportation, but I don’t see any useful connection here?

    Anyway, the above is just speculation and for sure getting sight of his personal file from the PRO will be invaluable. I would also suggest searching for files on Monkeypuzzle as surely what relates to that relates to him?

    No.9

    If you'd like to add to your SOE collection, if you don't already have them, perhaps consider 'Camp X' by Stafford (Camp X was the agents trainging camp in Canada), and 'Baker Street Irregulars' by Sweet-Escott.
     
  6. meonthebay

    meonthebay Member

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    November 27, 2003
    Hi No 9!
    Again, you have given some very wise advice. You are a font of information - thank you for sharing.
    If the information at the PRO is disappointing, I shall pursue the Monkeypuzzle files.
    I noticed the following on the PRO site today:
    "In the case of SOE records not yet in PRO custody, enquiries may be directed to: The SOE Advisor, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Room 5/20, 24 Whitehall, London, SW1A 2ED".

    Information from books:
    M.R.D. Foot - SOE: Special Operations Executive - France - "MONKEYPUZZLE, under Raymond Flower (Gaspar): Flower, a thirty-year-old British subject, born in Paris and brought up in the French hotel business, was brave and cheerful enough, but undistinguished for security sense or forethought. Parachuted blind on 27 June, he made a few useful contacts, but Clech's wireless was under constant search by the direction-finders, and the circuit never gotgoing properly. It was wound up the next spring. Flower was flown back to England in mid-March 1943, and spent the rest of the war on training and on liaison between F and RF sections. Clech was also brought out next spring, by air; complaining a good deal of the tendancy of French groups he had worked with to tread on each others' toes".

    "Secret War" by Nigel West - page 111 "Led by a British chef born and raised in Paris, Raymond Flower (Gaspard), the MONKEYPUZZLE circuit consisted of Marcel Clech (Bastien), a former cab driver and Section D veteran who had been brought in from Gibraltar by submarine; an ex-prisoner of war named Pierre Culioli; and SOE's first woman agent to be parachuted into enemy-occupied territory, Andrée Borrel (Denise)". ... and ......"MONKEYPUZZLE had been handicapped by personality differences between Flower and his wireless operator, Clech, who thought him insecure".

    Raymond Flower was born in Paris but was not a chef. He worked in the family hotel (Hotel Bellevue)located in Chahaignes, which is located approximately 50 miles from Tours. He would not have been a stranger to Tours and I have been told my a family member that he had to dye his hair and change his appearance in other ways,as he was working so close to his home.

    I have received information from other queries I made, that indicates he was also involved in AUTOGIRO, but no books so far located,have mentioned that he worked with this circuit.

    The 64 Baker Street website: Nancy Wake was parachuted into Auvergne region on the night of 29/30 April 1944. Apparently Raymond is mentioned in the book, "Nancy Wake", by Russell Braddon. I do not have the book as yet (on order from library)but I have been told there are 15 pages to read with references to Raymond Flower. It will be interesting to see what was written, as his files indicate he was brought back to England in mid-March 1943 and spent the rest of the war in England???, if so, why is he mentioned in the book about Nancy if she was not sent in until April 1944, unless it is giving background information??

    All very fascinating.
    Shirley
     
  7. meonthebay

    meonthebay Member

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    November 27, 2003

    Forgot to mention that Camp X is located in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, on the north shore of Lake Ontario. I lived in Oshawa for 18 years and have visited the site of the camp and also the Camp X Museum, located near the Oshawa Airport, on Stevenson Rd. N.
    I have added both books to my ever-growing list.
    Shirley
     
  8. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    Thanks Shirley, re Autogiro, I think this ceased early in ’42 hence prior to Ray going to France?

    Re Nancy Wake, I have the book though it’s been some time since I read it. However, after a quick thumb through I didn’t find a reference to Ray but there’s a lot about Gaspard, a French regional Maquis commander. Perhaps someone is confusing Gaspar with Gaspard?

    Thank you for the info on the current Camp X. I see it has its own site on the web!

    http://webhome.idirect.com/~lhodgson/campx.htm

    Will have a good look at this later on. [​IMG]

    No.9
     
  9. meonthebay

    meonthebay Member

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    November 27, 2003
    Hi No. 9
    I think you are right (again!!).I read about the other agent on a website. I think the information sent to me most surely is not about Raymond, but the other agent.
    Why didn't I think of that? Good thing you are watching this forum.
    Thanks
    Shirley :eek:
     
  10. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    Very welcome Shirley, I’m becoming as anxious as you to know what’s in the PRO files.

    For one thing it would be good to find out if the associations West states in respect of Pierre Culioli and Andrée Borrel being part of MONKEYPUZZLE are correct? For the moment my two cents is not on this view. I’m sure your typing is accurate, in which event West has jumbled Gaspar with Gaspard. Hence, he may also be confusing Tours with Paris? Borrel may have been met by MONKEYPUZZLE when she parachuted in, but (per Foot) was destined for Paris to become a courier for PROSPER?

    No.9
    Manui dat cognitio vires
     
  11. meonthebay

    meonthebay Member

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    November 27, 2003
    Hi No 9:
    I think that is correct, as well!!
    I have read that Nancy Wake did not go in until 1944.
    By the way, the latest information about Nancy Wake was she had suffered a heart attack in the early part of this year and was in hospital. Two weeks ago I learned that she is confined to a wheelchair and was unable to return to the Stafford Hotel. She is now living at the Royal Star and Garter Veterans Home, in Richmond.
    I learned that Sonya Butt (codename: Blanche) lives in Canada. I was bold enough to phone her two weeks ago and ask about Raymond.
    She is now Mrs. D'Artois and uses the first name, Toni. What a charming lady. We had a lovely chat and she told me about how she happened to go to the SOE. It was not until 1944 when she was sent to France.
    I am most anxious to find what the records in the PRO hold for Raymond but will have to wait until mid-December. My friend in England has offered to go to the PRO, and I have given him a list of other things to check, as per your suggestions.
    What a lovely Christmas present he may find for me!!
    Cheers
    Shirley :rolleyes:
     
  12. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    Thank you for the info Shirley, I didn't know about Nancy Wake. After seeing her on TV at the premier of Charlotte Grey, I presummed she would be going back to Oz? :(

    I can imagine how you enjoyed your phone chat. Bet I can guess someone extra on your Christmas card list this year? ;)

    As I'm sure you've found on their site, there's quite a bit you can do in advance with the PRO to save time when you visit. The PRO will photocopy most documents for a reader (when they are in the reading room), so you could have your own copies? [​IMG]

    No.9

    [ 28. November 2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: No.9 ]
     
  13. meonthebay

    meonthebay Member

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    November 28, 2003
    Hi No 9
    I am sure you are aware of the 64 Baker Street website - if not: http://www.64-baker-street.org/main/index.html. Very interesting site and information about the FANY agents, and lots of links to other interesting information.
    You will see that Nancy Wake moved from Australia to England in 2001. It seems she never received an award from Australia and had some very smart comment about what she would tell them if they offered one now!!
    On this site you will also see a section for Sonya Butt (Toni D'Artois). Contrary to what is written, she now spells her first name as I have typed it here.
    Toni's husband was a Canadian and trained at Camp X and did some incredible things in his lifetime.
    It is very confusing about the Gaspar and Gaspard names, but reference to the years help in keeping them straight.
    Thanks so much for telling me the routine when visiting the PRO. I look forward to visiting there when I am in England again, but I must confess that I will feel very intimidated. I am accustomed to our little village archives where I know my way around, and where the staff know me!
    Cheers
    Shirley
     
  14. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    Indeed well worth visiting for an outline of SOE ladies in France. A significant but small part of the story of women at war in Europe.

    Seems like you could write some interesting papers on Toni and her husband, if they haven’t been written already? Perhaps arrange a meeting for this purpose and just leave a tape running.

    Re the PRO, it really is a splendid new building and quite comfortable despite its terms and restrictions. In the “do’s and don’ts” ( http://www.pro.gov.uk/about/access/planning.htm ) they say you can take in a laptop if you wish (but no scanners) but don’t make it too clear that the desks in the reading rooms have power points to plug into. Really though, all bags, bits, coats etc have to be left in the locker room – which you can nip up and down to. As they point out, they don’t want you taking books into the reading rooms so you should prepare notes for yourself and take these in among your permitted max ten sheets of paper. The books can stay in the locker of course. Pencils only, no pens, erasers or sharpeners. If you really want to impress, take a pair of white cotton gloves – not latex. ;)

    Apart from saving collection time by pre-ordering files, it also helps to ensure the files you want are available and not already out to someone else. If you leave to the day and someone has pulled the file before you……. :(

    The staff are very friendly and genuinely helpful. You need to find someone with a personal interest in W.W.II. Latch on to the right anorak and you’ll have an instant PA. Else just smile and the men, or the women in brogues? :eek: [​IMG]

    My personal grouse is they won’t let me take a case of Coke or a pouch of bacci – like being back at school (almost). :rolleyes:

    You’ll have to let me know when you’re coming [​IMG]

    No.9
     
  15. meonthebay

    meonthebay Member

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    November 28, 2003
    Hi No. 9
    I am planning to visit Toni but it will be in the spring when driving conditions are better. She is only about 4 hours from our home.
    Yes, I am gathering a considerable amount of information and probably should write a paper.
    First I must finish typing everything I have collected about my great uncle who was KIA in WWI.
    Strange you should suggest a tape recorder as I did just that when I was in England in August. I met with my gr. uncle's son (89 yrs of age) who does not remember his father.
    Over the last 18 months I have been able to find photos of his parents (he had never, in 89 years, had a photo of either). It took about three months to find the photo of his father but over seven months to find one of his mother. It surfaced after I arranged for an article to be printed in a Suffolk newspaper, and it came from a gentleman who lives in Switzerland!! You can imagine how happy he was to finally have the photos.
    In August I met him for the first time and another researcher was also there to present him with his father's replacement WWI medals. I have almost two hours - so much better than trying to remember everything.
    Thank you so much for sending the information about visiting the PRO. I shall remember to take the white cotton gloves, just to get off on the right foot with the staff. I am accustomed to wearing them at the local archives but still do not like them, especially when writing with a pencil.
    I shall send the link and your notes to my friend in England who is planning to visit the PRO in mid December.
    I have printed everything and have filed it in my 'what to do when next in England file".
    My friend is taking her Masters at LSE and I have promised to visit her sometime, but it will probably not be until the late summer, 2004.
    Roll on mid-December-I can't stand the suspense much longer!
    Cheers, from a very wet Canada
    Shirley
     
  16. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    All very heart-warming news Shirley. Thanks to the recent film, Nancy Wake has taken all the limelight for SOE women. Now, this is by no means undeserved – far from it – and there is no ridiculous award for ’who was the best’, but, it does overshadow all the other ladies who also have a story. Probably, generally speaking, in respect of ‘secret agents’ everything has to be James Bond. As for the real ‘Bonds’ there’s virtually no celebrity. Even the ‘real’ Bond who died last month was never afforded it.

    Good work and an excellent result with your great uncle research. Very determined, I am impressed. I find a tape works well for me, mainly, as you say, you don’t have to worry about missing things.

    Your local reading room sounds very strict if they insist on gloves! The PRO doesn’t make mention of them as they are not required except with exceptional documents.

    It’s very wet here also, but at least we don’t have any prospect of an Ice Storm to consider. Temperatures may only hit just below freezing on a few occasions but nothing more expected. Get some wood in and feed the Racoons – saves getting the dustbins turned over, what? ;) [​IMG]

    No.9
     
  17. meonthebay

    meonthebay Member

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    November 29, 2003
    Hi No 9!
    Right you are - the ones who have a need for recognition are the ones who receive the most attention.
    I found this site today when searching for information about Marcel Clech: http://members.aol.com/HLarroque/sgbindex.htm#List
    A list of over 100 agents who worked in SOE F Sector, who lost their lives. Books have been written about a handful of them and they are the persons who have become the heroes.
    The Anglican Church Diocese Archives insists researchers wear cotton gloves at all times. In our local archives it is required only for certain documents.
    We have an electric furnace and lots of firewood for the fireplace, in case of power interruptions.
    The garbage cans (dust bins) are kept in the garage so no problems with the pesky raccoons! We don't see them in the winter. They are not hibernating animals but in extreme cold, go into a state of torpur.
    During the winter we see only deer, rabbits,and foxes, and sometimes hear coyotes and wolves. (we do live in "The Colonies"!).
    Cheers
    Shirley
     
  18. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    ”Colonials?” – I thought you were Canadian Geordies? I mean, you’ve got Newcastle on one side and Whitby on the other??? :cool:

    I’m very jealous of your wildlife. I can count on seeing urban foxes (all year), but rabbits will have to wait until spring and for deer I’ll have to go to Richmond Park. Re the Coyotes and wolves…… :( (As for ‘coons…………) :rolleyes: [​IMG]

    I think if I had a winter in Ontario, I’d never be able to afford the food to feed them. The deer, rabbits, foxes, coyotes and wolves that is………………the ‘coons feed themselves! :eek: [​IMG]

    No.9
     
  19. meonthebay

    meonthebay Member

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    November 30, 2003
    Hi No 9!
    Oshawa has Newcastle on one side and Whitby on the other. We also have London, Scarborough, Kingston, Windsor... then the Indian names:
    Gananoque, Waupoos, Tyendinaga, Mississauga, and Wawa. Scads of French names in Quebec. Prior to WWI there were several German-named towns and villages, but their names where changed. Berlin became Kitchener in 1916 - the name, Kitchener, being quite obvious.
    We feed only the birds in winter. The foxes, coyotes and wolves prey upon the rabbits; the deer eat berries and other vegetation; the squirrels live on their stock of acorns, hickory nuts, beechnuts, and more than the odd seed from the birdfeeders. Raccoons? :mad: - never feed them! The cute little chipmunks will not be seen again until spring. :D
    Geography and Nature 101 -
    Cheers [​IMG]
    :rolleyes: Shirley
     
  20. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    Thank you Shirley, if I run into any of these animals I’ll know what to feed them. Our foxes generally eat left-overs from the bins, except the one who visit me who usually get dog food as well [​IMG]

    Thanks also for the town info. Not surprising you know Kitchener, being so close to Waterloo ;)

    No.9
     

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