What if no nazism (but war anyway) in German?

Don't you mean training or do you mean a place for German's to manufacture their arms? Although I thought that was Denmark and Sweden. Please elaborate.



Or were you referring to the captured Soviet Weapons by the Wehrmacht.

 

After WW1 Russia was the only European country ( mostly ) which held friendly relations with Germny, this is in part due to Lenin and his revolution..... Just one example: Germany's airforce was built in Russia. Officers like Guderian went to officer school in Khazan, Russia. Commerce between the two countries flourished.

 

Impossible if you stay true to the original thread question, there is no Hitler, so no Hitler and defininatley no Nazi Party, who would be the logical main political power that could unite Germany, the strongest political party was the Communist Party, alright i'll grant you one thing the strength of the Communist could unify all the right wing parties into one but it as per thread question not the NSDAP.

 

As I mentioned, U boats were worked on in Scandanvia, The Russians provided a training ground for the german Tankers and Airborne(expositions). Those men sliding off the wings that you commonly see in file footage of Soviet archives. But.....The Weapons were German design, you alluded that they were Russia, please give some examples of this.

Well NSDAP is just a name that Hitler used to rally the hungry. Given the economic condtions due to the First World War and global economic depression, There could have been any number of groups that could have solidifed a right based group with its own set of ideals for blame and where are germans going. As many interviewed have said "Joined the NSDAP because they gave us bread" "It may not seem important now but it meant alot in those days" The same occurence can be related to a non NSDAP group by name but in ideology. Industrialists and the Military could easily win support of the poor and unemployed if they fed them. There will always be an extreme left communism and an extreme right fascism in the world history and arena of politics. Communism is alive and well in South America, and there are some 80+ dictatorships around the world, granted not all of them Right

 

Not at all, what I said was that they were built in Russia, in secrecy. I never said that they were Russian, or of Russian design.

And yes the training was done in Russia, also in secrecy.


A secret aviation school

 

Oops, it has amazed me that no one has pulled me up on my mistake, i said their would be no NSDAP, i am wrong there would be a NSDAP afterall it is just a union, i have made the mistake of politisiing the Union. The NSDAP may have continued as just that the Nationalist Socialist Germans Workers Party, but without Hitler and his force of will it would never have developed into the Nazi Party.

Sorry for the mistake

 

Why never?

 

From what I've read Germany had a plan to go to war since the late 1920 and even began rearming in violation of the Treaty of Versailles then. So with or without Hitler, war would have come to Germany and Europe. It would definately have been a different war. Reichwehr leadership favored a smaller army bigger navy but with much deeper reserves in armaments & supplies [upto a year]. So the aim would be to overrun the ToV powers within that year and be prepared for a larger European war. However all the strategists agreed that it would take until the mid 1940s to reach that level of war economy; mass production industry and force structure.

The resitance of the Miltiary to Hitlers pushing was due to the fact that he abandoned this strategy for a risky mish mash of short term expediencys/arrangements to 'fast track' that effort through accelerated conquest. Even he didn't really believe war would break out in 1939. He figured the euros were too chickshit to stand united against him. The Generals knew better and thus put the breaks on when ever they could.

 

Germany might have begun to rearm but if we take Hitler out of the equation, then Germany would not be ready for total and general war until 1944

Army ready by 1941/42

Navy ready by 1944/45

Airforce ready by 1940/41

But even after all that, there is that subject of the vexing question, Nazism or not would German pride allow the continuation of the Polish Corridor and the isolation of East Prussia, methinks not.

 

Problem is that due to Hitlers interferance, the Wehrmacht was not ready in 1939/40 either. They had the forces, but they were not modernized or motorised , which was part of the plan. Worse they only had a couple months supplies of essential munitions etc. Therefore they could only engaged in defensive war or occasional sequential offensive campaigns with long periods inbetween in order to rebuild stockpiles etc.

PS Im new here , whats this "Multioff" button for?

 

Look at what he has done from 33'-39'

Who else would have accomlished all of this?

 

Hitler wasn't responsible for the lack of motorization in the German army in 1939 or 1944; the inability of the German auto industry to produce mass numbers and the military's insistance on overly engineered and complex vehicles was. Add to this the propritary nature of many vehicle designs such that they had no commonality in components only made the problem worse. In 1939, just before the war started the military recognized the problem and started the Schill program to try and fix the worst of their problems. Even with a streamlining of vehicle types the Germans still had over 100 motorcycles (down from just short of 400), over 100 light cars and passenger vehicles and just over 200 trucks in service as "standard" vehicles. The war only made things worse with 'standard' captured types and foreign vehicles in 'standard' service (eg., Citroen for example).
Look at their halftracks. These all used complex torsion bar interleaved suspensions with rubber bushed, twin pin, lubricated roller bearing tracks. These required a massive amount of maintenance in return for a small increase in performance. This doesn't even begin to show how costly and slow production was as a result.

The same sort of problems could be found across the board: Great engineering designs that were over engineered and complicated to manufacture compounded by continual minute improvements being introduced by military personnel assigned to oversee production. It was a recipe for industrial gridlock.

 

Had Hitler left well enough alone , by 1940 their divisions would have been much better equipped than they were but fewer. Meanwhile both their airforce and navy would have been bigger. IE a much more balanced force. They would also have had stockpiled enough munitions/fuel to mount offensive warfare for months on end.

Hitler wasted hugh amounts or money and resoures on military questionable programmes. While Autobahnn was seen as a make work project the benifit offered to the economy had all but disappeared by 1935. Most of the rebounding of the economy was due to programes set up by the regime Hitler replaced and would have gone on with or without him. From 1935 on Military programmes dominated the economy and from 1936 on Hitler exerted increasing control over where that money was spent.

Reportedly during this period 5 billion was sunk into building highways, while the critical railway network was left to rot. Some Generals questioned the value of the autobahn since they planned to use [and did use] mostly railway network to move troops around [since trains use coal and Germany was nearly selfsufficent in coal resources, while diesel fuel was always in short supply]. In addition reportedly 2-3 billion was wasted on party building projects during this period. Monuments to nazi vanity etc etc.

Just to be clear from 1935-to the start of the war , the Germans spent 6.5 billion on armaments. So money wasted on the autobahn and party buildings, could have instead doubled armaments spending. What did germany lose due to this mismanagement of funds. A larger airforce including Stategic bomber and bigger navy , plus a enlarged synthetic fuel industry, spring to mind and there probably are others.

 

Hitler was responsible for both the lack of motorisation of the German army and the lack of mass production in the industry. Those were both choices he made back in the early 1930s. When faced with the danting task of rebuilding the German economy & military, the Strategic command had edged towards mass production as a means to equip the forces needed to defend the country. However all attempts to erect such production programs were frustrated by Hitlers lack of support. Such changes are only possible from the top down and Hitler was against mass production, since he saw it as cheap . Maybe more importantly, to do so would put too much power under one persons control and that always threatened Hitler more. Instead quality was emphasised over quantity.

The lack of motorization was also Hitlers fault.German auto industry was churning out 400,000 to 500,000 vehilces per year in the late 1930s, so they had the capacity to build the million plus vehicles needed to motorise the Wehrmacht. When German found itself at war desperate measures were implimented to boost mass production of mechanized vehicles for the Wehrmacht, but in the short term this could only be achieved by converting vehicle production into mechanized production at a very unfavorable exchange rate.

By 1942 when mass production of mechanised vehicles took off, vehicle production had been cut back to about 175,000 units per year. But by then the annual consumption of vehilces was already reach the production levels. So the inventory of vehilces was only maintained through 1942-43 by scavanging civilian economy for any none essential vehicles to make good on losses. By the last year of the war, despite ravaging the civilian economy for hundreds of thousands of vehicles , they could only support an inventory of vehicles 1/2 of the 1942-43 plateau.

 

Hiter was gearing up for war which is why Germany got the military that it did. Who if not Hitler would have dared to accomplish so much and stand up to the Western powers with the intension of going to war?

 

Yes you are correct, but not in this senario, as the question states NO HITLER and NO NAZIS, so your view is mute.

 

Hey guys for your inconvenience this is the original thread, so read it and as it clearly states NO HITLER, NO NAZISM. So stop bringing in HITLER if that is possible.

 

At this time frame Germany was the most modern military machine in Europe...

 

Oh my god a compliment, wonders will never cease.