If hitler began operation Barbarossa at his initial proposed date

The same interests they had anyway.
The war on Communism and alliance with Germany.
Are you suggesting Mussolini would not have sent troops to Russia had he not been to war with Greece?
I just dont see the logic here.

 

The Soviet counter offensive relied on gaining information that the Japanese where not going to attack in December.
Thus the counter offensive began when such information was available.

And numerous others suggest otherwise.

Then they will suffer badly in the face of a very serious counter attack.
I wouldnt be to sure that they could hold the ring around Moscow.

The main casualties would come in the counter offensive.

By current means and supply lines.

 

Italian Expeditionary Corps in Russia

Between July and August 1941 the Italian Expeditionary Corps in Russia arrived in the USSR.
The initial strength of the CSIR stood at about 3,000 officers and 59,000 men, 5,500 motor vehicles, and over 4,000 horses and mules.
By November 1942 the Italian Expeditionary Corps in Russia had become the 8th Italian Army had a total of 235,000 men in twelve divisions and four legions. It was equipped with 988 guns, 420 mortars, 25,000 horses, and 17,000 vehicles.
If the Greek campiagn has not happened and the occupation that followed the strength of this force would have been far great in 1941 and 942.

Italian loses in Greece 63,000 dead
100,000+wounded
25,067 missing
12,368 incapacitated by frostbite
ca. 23,000 taken prisoner
64 aircraft (another 24 claimed)

Italian loses in the invasion of Yugoslavia: 3,324 killed or wounded, 10+ aircraft downed.

 

What Italian interest are served by attacking the Soviets? If the Italians hadn't gone in to the Balkans they would almost assuredly had something better to do closer to home. After the Germans helped them out in the Balkans and essentially made it part of the Eastern front they had little choice.

 

Even if he takes Moscow which I serously doubt how are they going to take the Ural mountains?

 

I think they would surround Moscow.
May even take it (if they try I understand Hitler just wanted it put under siege like Leningrad).
But they have no chance of getting to the Urals.
I would expect they best they could hope for was peace in 42 or 43 with all the land west of the Volga.

 

So with Moscow surrounded Stalin would not have released the reserves?

There always are. Which ones are you referring to?

Please elaborate on the battle of Moscow, and how many casualties do you think the Germans might have sustained in trying to capture the capital before the "counter offensive".

In the first 6 months Germany sustained 800k casualties yet was only able to replace 200k of them. Current means were not good enough especially if the casualties would be greater than they historically were. The supply lines would also be longer in this scenario which does not help the German cause. These additional few divisions would not be enough to replenish the troops besieging Moscow.

 

The Italian interest would be to defeat Communism and help its Nazi ally.
Just as Mussolini assisted in the Battle of Britain and just as he declared war on the USA.

 

The numbers of reserves to release will differ greatly on when Moscow is surrounded.
I shall have a look at the reserves available at my estimated surrounding date.

I shall get a list of names.

Depends on if they place it under seige or attack it.

The extra German and Italian divisons I mentioned would help here.
The supply lines will only be slightly longer and more than made up for by the fact Moscow would be surrouned before the October mud.

 

And let us not forget just how weak the Italian military was in 1938, and not much improved by 1940. When Adolf Hitler visited Italy in 1938 for a week, between the 3rd and 10th of May, Mussolini put on a "parade" to show off for Hitler.

The trucks in which the Italian troops rode were rented (not owned), and the boots they wore were made of cardboard leggings over regular civilian shoes. The marching men had to make sure they side-stepped any water puddles on the route to make sure the cardboard didn't melt during the parade.

They didn’t have trucks or boots at the time, but Mussolini didn’t wish for his new partner to know how weak the Italian military really was. But then again for Benito "appearance was reality".

 

Also these Italian troops were already committed elsewhere (Ukraine). Why move them and who would replace them?

 

Is that enough though? Up until then Italy only got into a conflict if it was of direct benefit to Italy. With the Balkans to insulate Italy from the war in the East and not owing the Germans anything for the Balkans is there enough incentive for the Italians to join in the war in the east? If they do join in what portion of their force do they send? A token or something more?

 

The supply lines might not be much longer but you've got a lot more troops at the end of them and mud or no it doesn't help the rail situation much which was as much or more of a problem logistcs wise than the mud was.

 

No one is suggesting moving them.
What will happen however is with a greater commitment of Italian troops to Army group South then German replacement can be sent to Army group Centre.

 

The composition of the Italian Expeditionary Corps in Russia in the USSR in August 1941 was as follows.
The CSIR was composed of three divisions: the 52 Motorised Division Torino, the 9 Motorised Division Pasubio, and the 3 Cavalry Division Amedeo Duca d'Aosta. Torino and Pasubio were known as "Semi Motorised" divisions. What this meant in practice was that an assortment of commercial vehicles with company logos intact were pressed into service. The Amedeo Duke of Aosta Cavalry Division was a combination of traditional saber wielding horse cavalry and motorized units. Much of the division's artillery was horse-drawn. The highly-mobile riflemen (Bersaglieri) in this unit often made use of motorcycles or bicycles.
The initial strength of the CSIR stood at about 3,000 officers and 59,000 men, 5,500 motor vehicles, and over 4,000 horses and mules. The units of the CSIR were primarily lightly armed infantry, horse cavalry, and mobile riflemen. The Torino and Pasubio divisions were composed of two infantry regiments and a regiment of artillery. The Prince Amedeo Duke of Aosta Fast Division was composed of four regiments. Those regiments were: the 3rd Dragoons Savoia Cavalry Regiment, the 5th Lancers Novara Cavalry Regiment, the 3rd Fast Artillery Regiment, and the 3rd Bersaglieri Regiment. As can be seen, the units of the CSIR represented a mixed lot and they were transported by truck, horse, car, motorcycle, bicycle, or, as was the case all too often, on foot.
While the Amedeo Duke of Aosta Division did include a small number of obsolete tankettes and light tanks (Fiat L3 or Fiat L6/40), and anti-tank guns (Cannone da 47/32 M35), there was nothing in the Italian arsenal able to effectively counter the numerous and technically superior Soviet tanks like the T-34/76 or KV I.
The Aviation Command of the CSIR had less than 100 aircraft. The CSIR had the following aircraft available to it: Macchi C.200 “Thunder" (Saetta) fighter, Caproni Ca.311 light reconnaissance-bomber, and Savoia-Marchetti SM.81 “Bat" (Pipistrello) tri-motor transport.
The CSIR included the "Special Intendancy East" (Intendenza Speciale Est) which provided the following logistical services: medical, commissariat, administration, artillery, chemical, horse and veterinary, transports, automotive, staging, mail, and telegraphic.

This force could have been better equiped and bigger without the Balkan campaign and occupation.

 

The supply of perhaps the 8 divisions extra from the Balkans and perhaps another 5 that would have been used by Army Group South would of course add additional strain to the logistical chain however up to the October mud this supply could have still been met by the current logistical capacities and the break once Moscow was surrounded before the mud season started would allow the supply chain to catch up.

 

Of course im not suggesting this would be a war winner for the Axis but it would give them a slightly better chance.
At the very least in surrounding Moscow.

 

They were notoriously poor at crossing rivers, and the Moskva lies between them and the city. I doubt they could even get across the thing, let alone surround the city. They never took Leningrad, and it was just on the wrong side of a marsh. The only major/defended city they did take for even a short time was on the west bank of a major river. Stalingrad.

I just fail to see them getting to, surrounding, or even removing Moscow from the war situation being of any benefit to the Nazis. Short-term or long.