This is another dog chasing tail thread. This VS That will always be open ended because it contains, personal preference, inaccuracy and personal beliefs. I'd call it a tie.
I don't understand why Hitler didn't focus on Moscow, it is the capital! I mean I understand why he targeted Stalingrad because it was a major manufacturing city and if 'Stalin'grad fell it would boost moral for his troops and sink Russia's spirit.
We had 130 posts on that subject here: http://www.ww2f.com/what-if/11720-i...ow-what-do-you-think-would-have-happened.html If you want to reopen that discussion it would be better if you did it under the appropriate topic.
You also have to keep in mind that it was the Western Allies who put a serious dent in the Luftwaffe an not the Red Army. Even right up until wars end the Soviet Airforce was not to be seen.
Hello globius, Try and tell that to the Luftwaffe pilots and the Wehrmacht who were facing those "not to be seen" Soviet Air force. Regards Kruska
In a biography by a Russian soldier he stated that throughout the war the Soviet Airforce wasnt to be seen, from his perspective anyway. I cant recall any large Air battles that happened on the Eastern Front ?
Hello globius, maybe this Russian soldier was stationed north of the Murmansk front. No, anyone who read and informed himself about the Russian campaign couldn't come up with that kind of statement. Luftwaffe losses in the East were far greater then in the West. Especially the KG units (like my uncle) were decimated in those almost 4 years. Regarding Battles or airbattles: In the Battle of Kursk more than 5000 aircrafts (approx.40/60%) of the Luftwaffe and the Soviet airforce participated - that is far more then during the BoB. Also you will notice that the vast majority of the Luftwaffe Aces originate and served on the Eastern front. Regards Kruska
Rubbish, Globius, that's a very common complaint. Read anything about the French in the 1940 campaign, or the (possibly apocriphal) German dictum "If you see a gray airplane, it's English, if you see a silver airplane, it's American, if you don't see any plane at all, it's the Luftwaffe!". It's all perceptions at groundhog level, for whom the air force (whichever) is never there, while the flyboys live the good life in the rear. Something to READ here: Black Cross Red Star and some loose artcles here. But this thread is about infantry, now we're going way
ok im going out on a limb and saying the german troops where far superior than the russian troops ..........just a few bad mistakes cost the german army the war ...and having a nutcase in charge didnt help much..........kursk is a great example ........if they had of attacked when they first thought it up they would have routed the russians , but no they waited giving the russians time to build defenses and bring in reenforcements.........then the german attacked causing them to loose a huge amout of equipment and men ..........what a waste
Exactamundo!! I was going to say almost exactly the same thing. The only thing I would have changed would have been that the German commanders were good through wars end especially Generals like Gotthard Heinrici.
Well a match on infantry also includes Wehrmacht units such as the Fallschirmjaeger, Mountain Divisions, The Grossdeutschland Division and not to forget the ruthless, murderous but also oustanding Waffen SS units. In overall the Russians might have been a match to the Wehrmacht in general, however I would not agree on the Russian Forces or even their Guards Divisions being equal not to mention better then those above forwarded German units. IMO that is. Regards Kruska
Hi Kruska, good opinions on good units ;-)) I have a nice slightly worn pair of Panzer Oberleutnant boards for the 1st G.D. Panzer Battalion-named ;-)) Not only do I know who the Officer is but that he's very highly decorated. What I don't know about him is anything else other than his service in GD after mid 1943. PS, I don't have his name handy but, if this dying computer will allow me, I can find his name on the internet.
If we go by the relative attrition rate, which is the only really objective measure that we have on a wide scale, then the Germans seem to come out on top. The Russians lost about 1.8 soldiers for every soldier the Germans lost, according to the casualty lists that I have seen. Now if we consider that the Russians consistently had enormous superiority in numbers, that attrition ratio becomes even more of an indicator that, soldier for soldier, the Germans were on average better. I grant that this is a very rough indicator, but I cannot think of a better. Of course, some of the Soviet soldiers were really brilliant field soldiers, but I suspect that the majority of them were conscripts and not very skilled. Also, the Soviet field officers early in the war were lacking in quality, which did not help.
He did, in 1941. The German 62nd Recon Battalion got to within about 6 KM or 4 miles of the Russian capitol. Allegedly men from that 62nd Recon Btn saw parts of Moscow in the distance and allegedly also saw the Kremlin. Hitler's Generals kept pushing him to renew the drive on Moscow but as we all know, the Russian 41-42 Winter Offensive, stuck the proverbial Bayonet, into the belly of Army Group Center and almost ripped out it's guts. Luckily for them, the winter ended and they (Army Group Conter) again went onto the offensive.
I'll go back to the 2nd page, globius is correct due to the vastness the LW and Soviet air arms many times missed each other and were not to be seen. In an interview with the Count Krupinski he mentions on several occassions that we hardly say the Russians but it was on the Western front with the US bombers, my God look at all those targets. the largst scores for the Lw was on the Ost front, the deadliest air engagements were on the wesetern front back on topic the Wehrmacht was indeed superior to the Soviets both in infantry and air to the very end, the only thing doubting as several have said was the numbers game in which the WEhrmacht could in no way shape or form compete. by the way the Wehrmacht got to within 1 mile of moscow ........ it's a secret
Hi E, I think Mitcham needs to update his book with that bit of info ;-)) If that figure is wrong? I wonder how close those German "boys" who got to within 20 miles from Astrakahn on the Volga, really got from said City?
Hello Erich, I know that you are a hell of an expert - but , I tend to disagree with you on that statement, the reason being: Most of the air engagements on the Western front are in relation to fighter versus fighter or Luftwaffe fighter versus Bombers, it was certainly a deadly and vicious encounter. However the vast majority of the Luftwaffe was in Russia. Three of my relatives were Luftwaffe pilots and two of them happened to belong to those mostly unsung – forgotten KG (Bomberunits) and Aufkl. Observerunits. These units were decimated far more then the JG in the West (minus the single Kamikaze event Bodenplatte). It could well be that some of those “Adler” (fighter flyboys) of the JG didn’t come across too much action in Russia, but this does not apply to those KG, Nahaufklaerer, Jabo, KV z.b.V., SG and Zerstoerer units. Regards Kruska