The Humanization of Nazis

When I say Nazis I mean Nazis not common Germans in general.
So I decided to make this topic for several reasons. I bought and thoroughly enjoyed the movie Downfall which was criticized for humanzing Hitler and his close subordinates. I also noticed the criticisms during some discussions of who what should and should not be considered fully human (literal and figuratively).

Do you think it his immoral and wrong to depict Nazis as humans in any shape or form? And do you consider them to be (figuratively) human?

 

Yes, they where humans. Just humans that don't deserve to be called humans.

 

I'm too tired to respond to this right now. Shortly heading off to bed. But let this serve as a warning that - based on the touchy subject - if things get out of control, Cooler time will be the reward.

 

I wouldnt say it humanized anyone aside from maybe Traudl Junge. In fact, in the 30 odd times Ive seen the movie, Ive never seen anything but cruelty absolute delerium and bedlam from the characters. On the contrary, Goebells come off as the king of the brown nosers, and his wife as the supreme bitch of all times.

 

I'm 100% ok with realistic portrayals. It's not a black and white world, lots of greys. I know several people who have strong views in areas I consider hateful and I believe some would take violent actions towards their targets of hate if givien the slightest chance. I still see their human side and as long as they respect my wish to not hear their "hate" I treat them with respect and I expect the same. It's convenient to think that people who have acted in an "evil" way are all pure evil (some are imo), but in general people are not that simple.

I hesitate to add this but i will anyways. My family contains people who fought against the nazis and people who helped them in addition to people who lost their lives to their hate. There's nothing special about that as I'm sure many(or some) of you share that history.

Hope I'm not fueling any fires with this post, but I think these are ok topics to discuss.

 

I appreciate your post. I don't like thinking of myself as belonging to the same species as the people who built the gas chambers but, at least from a biological perspective, I must admit I do.
It is very difficult to keep the blood pressure low when talking about this topic but IMO understanding what happened is important, as it may help to prevent history repeating itself, and to understand we must first be able to talk about it.
Just stating "they where a bunch of inhuman monsters" is not very helpful in this perspective.

 

As a German, maybe you would all like to hear my opinion on this subject, reading some of these posts, i would believe to be on the wrong site, it seems none know anything about the real NS people, nor Germany back then, or today, the everyday man and woman, who adored Hitler, and believed in National socialisum, my grandfather and mother were both National socialists, i come from a line of NS people, do i believe still in the greater good of their ways? Believe in that everyone had a job, an apartment, securirity, money, a safe place to live, that the NS era, before the war was a truely family orintated place to live? Then yes sirs, i am a "nazi" as you would all put it, then yes sirs, 80% of German people today are "nazis" so be careful when using that word, and be careful to only put your 2 cents worth in when you have any idea what your talking about, now, i do believe i shall proberly be thrown from this site for writing this, but i hope before i do, then think about what you are saying, respect the German people, then and now, we are paying heavily for loosing the war, i invite you all to Germany to see how we "lost" the war, maybe then you'll have another opinion of this country.
wishing you all regards from the RHS Berlin.

 

Mental and other handicapped people who were euthanised? Did they have a right to "a job, an apartment, securirity, money, a safe place to live"? Communists? Socialists? Social Democrats? Trade Union leaders? Jews? Gypsies? Homosexuals? Jehovah Witnesses?

Aren't you forgetting about these? Of course it all makes sense if your pretty "everyone" includes only the Herrenvolk, racially pure Aryans. Blond as the Führer, svelte as the Reischsfeldmarschall, atheltic as the Reichspropagandaminister.

80% of Germans would support murder of the other 20% of Germans? I didn't get that idea the last time I looked, perhaps I was looking at a Germany of today and you were looking at a Germany of 70 years ago.

What exactly do you mean by this, are you coming to a public forum and impose conditions? Please!

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Human? I don't know, systematic yes.

Back to topic, I don't think it is useful to look a priori at a group and classify them as inhumans (same as classifying "others" as sub-humans). That is simplifying too much and what it does is restrict study by introducing preconceived ideas, which will falsify any effort.

 

Magda
Believe me when I say I mean no disrespect to you or your people, and I believe nobody on this site does. I'm sad to see proof the consequences of the war still weight so heavily for some after 60 years, most of my German friends just never mention the subject.
I'm an Italian and I'm facing similar difficulties to those that, if I read you correctly, caused your outburst. We do not like seeing our folly thrown in our faces by foreigners that did not live through it, but folly it was. Most Italians embraced fascism with enthusiam until the war started turning bad, AFAIK Mussolini's racial laws where mostly accepted without significant opposition. We accepted the promise of security, and the pride of being told we were a great country, and did not look at the risk of relinquishing all control over the political leaders.
Maybe it's easier for me because fascist Italy proved to be a paper tiger, so it's automatic to believe a lot of the proclaimed security was propaganda as well, while nazi Germany was a true great power but take some time to look at the personal morals of most nazi leaders and tell me how that fits with your values. Also think how long is your security going to last when it's ultimately in the hands of people like them.

BTW mr if this is not WW2 today I wonder what is, so please don't kill this thread unless it degenerates.

ADDITION: Za, I did't see your post before answering, my first reaction was similar to yours but I'm assuming Magda is a real person and not a troll.

 

I've absolutely no problem with the depiction of senior Nazis as human beings; because they were.
Not Humanitarian, or humane, but certainly human.

There's a historiographical problem with always focusing on the monstrous and not trying to see things more clearly, Downfall (the Film) works so well because it shows a complex human creature rather than a one dimensional cipher.

It's too easy to depict the slime as monsters with slavering tongues, bulging eyes and an insatiable thirst for random murder, it oversimplifies and damages the objective enquiry into their lives. Far more illuminating to try to appreciate the bigger picture and how they fitted in as human beings, often the banal detail of their lives and crimes can provide a far more chilling perspective with a far stronger warning that these people can and did come from anywhere (Though one or two I can think of do indeed fit the slavering role - the sociopath that prove the rule perhaps).
Simplistic 'monster' portrayals play into the hands of 'Magda' and his/her ilk. 'A study in Tyranny' is a great book because it enquires into the personal, Bullock's other work 'Parallel Lives' also leaves one more disturbed on Stalin & Hitler as it covers them in detail as normal human beings and their 'growth' towards the distasteful, Kershaw's massive Hitler book (Nemesis/Hubris) is so large, and superb, because it never sinks to an over-simplistic analysis of the man, understanding requires depth, and part of that depth is a willingness to appreciate that these were real people, not just cartoon characters.

And surely we're all grown up enough to spot anyone posting here with another 'agenda' from a mile away, they have a style that always begins with seemingly mild reference to certain points just like 'magda' - let's just ignore 'em (though no doubt we'll be patronised for being so 'blind') and get on with trying to discuss the point J.A.'s interested in. Don't worry guys, saying 'Hitler loved his dog' doesn't necessarily make you a Neo or denialist, there are usually other 'signs'... (or in Magda's case, complete overtness), hopefully she'll clear off before this becomes a playground giving her a little circus to gradually build up to the 'bigger issues' that doubtless she/he'd love to 'educate' us all about.

Cheers,
Adam.

 

mr TiredOldSoldier, the last thing you need to do is tell me how to do my job. My earlier post just served as a warning since this is the type of thread that can degenerate before it reaches a second page. It is also a touchy subject, as more recent posts have proven, and i'd really like to see things kept civil. Attacking other rogues etc is not the way to go about it, so thus my warning.


Magda, I am sorry to see that you think everyone here thinks that 80% of Germans are Nazis and are still Nazis. That general assumption, IMO, is just as bad as people who refer to all Germans as Nazis. J.A.Costigan makes that his point with his very first sentance.

As such, I think your point is moot. To say that none of us know what Germany was like back then, well, no one but those who lived during that time know what it was really like. For us, we can only read about it, learn about it, and draw our own conclusions.

But again, that doesn't answer the original question.

My own response would be, simply, No for the first part, and Yes for the second part.

 

Exactly, a point I tried to make a while ago. One of the crimes of the Nazies was to divide the human race into 'humans' and 'subhumans.' The very reason they did it was because it suddenly makes dealing with certain groups easier, you just say 'well they are different from us' and you no longer have to deal with a far more complex situation.

It is very easy to talk about Hitler and his ilk as monsters, foaming mouths, whipping tails, huge claws. It makes it dead easy to think about because well, he is 'different' from us, these people are 'not like me' and therefore I can engage with the concept of what they did on a more impersonal level. It's just a lot less scary than looking at what I feel is the truth, that actually there isn't that much difference between Hitler and most of the rest of us on a basic level, it was the situation he found himself in, his own perculiar talents and of course the environment in which he lived which enabled him to become one of the most evil men in history.

Hitler was a tee-total vegetarian, he loved his dog, was polite to his secretaries and often enchanted people he spoke to. It doesn't tally with the devil figure we are brought up with and that is why it is so scary, if you met him without any knowledge of what he had done you would probably think he was a pleasant chap. What a truly terrible thought!

Reminds me of a chap called 'Earnst' a friend of mine introduced me to years back, elderly German chap who was funny, pleasant, polite, charming even, the steryotypical 'lovely old man' type. I only found out a year or so later that Earnst had been in the 2nd SS PzDiv, Das Reich, from quite early in the war, he finished the war as an officer and was still an unrepentant Nazi. I normally reckon myself to be a good judge of character but boy was I off on this one!

 

I didn't mean it that way, I really like how this site is moderated and perfectly aware of how this sort of topic can get out of hand. I was just asking for some leeway as I was very interested in Magda's answer (she was still logged on when I started my reply but then Za's post probably terminated the discussion). Winning a peace, by which I mean creating something most people will accept and go on with their lives, is possibly even harder than winning a war.

 

Just an observation: we are all human.(And therefore imperfect) We have free will.

What we see in other's behavior as to evil acts (genocide for example) is feared by us because it is wrong and we know that any group of humans (even ourselves included) "could" do the same thing given the "right" conditions.

How and why does that mild mannered accountant suddenly murder his wife of 35 years? That evil potential lurks in all.

So it is , to me, very unnerving to see the nazis portrayed as "human" because it again reminds me of that potential evil in all humans.

How to recognize and control that evil...that is an entirely differernt question.

 

I don't think it wrong to humanize the Nazi leadership since they were just like everyone else. It is important to show this because this could happen to anyone. I have previously posted where Himmler and Heydrich each were considered to be exceptional fathers yet they were responsible for the killing of millions.

Now my question to Magda is this. Do you as a NS believe in the extermination of a people just because they are different or have different beliefs and it benefits the greater good of the NS ways? I grew up as a youth in Germany and late lived there as an adult for a short time. I don't agree in your description, percentage wise, of the German population. Also, the German people are not paying for losing the war.

The German nation has paid for allowing, without a fight, the ridiculing and extermination of a people for "the greater good" of the NS ways. The German people today, have to deal with that history just like the American people have to deal with the slavery issue. It is part of our history. If any German feels like they are being unfairly punished for something that happened long ago, more then likely their thoughts are like yours where you still believe in "the greater good".

We also believe that everyone should have a job, an apartment, securirity, money, a safe place to live but not at the expense of other's lives. So if you believe in NS like the leadership under Hitler, they you should take offense. Do 80% of the Germans believe that...............I say not.

 

Maybe I'm just naive but I liked the idea of exhanging views with someone who still has not put the war behind him/her, some wounds are still open, especially for people whose parents had to leave their houses and most of their belongings in the "ethnic cleansings" that followed WW2 and it's very difficult to get them to talk about it.
Back to the main thread, I agree on most of what you say. I like looking at all possible facets as well but one also needs to make choices and take sides.
I'm not as scared about "it could happen to me" as I'm scared about "it could happen because I did nothing when it could have been stopped", call it a "Monaco treaty syndrome" if you want. That's why I think the portraits of nazis as slavering monsters is not just simplistic but dangerous, the other side of that coin is "because he/she is not slavering he/she is not dangerous". Any politician with a basically hate based platform is dangerous, at that point otherwise "good" things like charm, charisma and integrity only make him more so.

 

Naturally you can try exchanging views with 'em mate, done it myself many times. Trouble is after a while you begin to spot the signs. Some perspectives are deeply ingrained, and polemicising/proselytising become the only intentions.
Magda has chosen Goebbels's wife's name, & had a picture of the Goebbels family on his/her profile, not unreasonable to assume from this that the intention is only to provoke, or a darker agenda. To engage with such when there is that alterior agenda only completes the widespread placing of 'seeds of doubt' that is a sophisticated intention on the Internet of certain groups. Sadly this does hinder real discussion/history, naturally that is a significant part of the program for some. Circular arguments are the usual outcome.

I converse with many Germans on the Internerd, one of my closest friends is from there too, she has a picture of her dad in Luftwaffe Uniform on her mantelpiece which always reminds me that there's multiple sides to every story, particularly personal one's (and feeds into my own feelings on J.A.'s question) - I feel I have some appreciation of the various issues associated with the extended price that modern Germany 'paid/pays' for the War.
None of my German friends (occupying a wide political spectrum) would choose to engage in the style Magda has chosen, or make the assumptions she/he does - so I don't believe it's controversial to expect anything more than an Agent Provocateur.

Cheers,
Adam.

 

I think we are getting lost in a semantic battle. As Texson has pointed out, the problem with the word "humanization" is that it suggests that the Nazis were -- and are -- people like us, that somehow if we attribute any aspect of "being human" to them, we somehow share in the guilt for the atrocities that have been committed under the Nazi banner.

Our reality in the context of WWII is that certain humans, primarily living in Germany and in the countries that it conquered or absorbed, embraced a violently evil ideology in the 1930's and 1940's. Those humans engaged in a pattern of murder, torture and other evil behaviours that all right minded people must condemn.

If the original question had been phrased differently -- did the Nazis have moments when they were not acting in an evil way? for example -- I doubt we would have much debate. Hitler and his ilk may have been charming in individual circumstances even when dealing with people who were not Nazis. I doubt any of us would argue that point.

That said, even if a Nazi can behave in a civilized fashion from time to time or even most of the time, so what!? Even if evil is a matter of degree, the evil that the Nazis perpetrated during WWII was behaviour beyond the comprehension of any person with even a hint of humanity in his or her being. It is perhaps overly simplistic to state that the Nazis were purely evil in everything they did but it is not overly simplistic to say that anyone who embraced Nazi ideology had no goodness because the evil taint of Nazism has to overshadow any element of goodness. A mass murderer does not become good just because he or she can be charming for a friend or for the camera. Supporters of mass murderers are little better, and people who stood on the sidelines and waved the flag did not keep their hands clean either.

[Note also that I am being very specific in my use of Nazi, as you would expect. The term should not be interpreted as a reference to all Germans at any point in history.]

 

I agree with Von Poop's observations and statements. Another good example is that just a little while ago there was a self proclaimed "Nazi" here. He of course was eventually Dishonorably Discharged after certain statements and views he made. Back to the original question. Some Nazis and thier actions made them what people would say "Inhuman". I agree. Not but all "Nazis" actually commited the "inhuman" and criminal acts other then supporting the Party and regime. Either Knowingly and unknowingly.