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Franco says yes.

Discussion in 'What If - Other' started by British-Empire, Mar 27, 2009.

  1. British-Empire

    British-Empire Member

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    It had already been decided that he Panzer Mk IIII was to be up gunned in May 1941 and would have been up gunned to 75mm soon after.
    German tank development was not just a result of war in the Soviet Union.
    The Germans had already realised their tank guns to be inadequate against the British tanks in Libya.
    They will have even more experience here while facing the British in the Middle East.
     
  2. von_noobie

    von_noobie Member

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    The Pz III 75mm only came into service in 1942-1943, There where only 700 of them and considering there lower capabilities to that of the Pz IV there fielding would not have made that big of a difference. Even then they had to be up dead close to get any real penetration as the 75mm gun was only an L/24 giving very limited range for effect.

    German tank development was not just a result of the Eastern front, agreed but it was the main contributing factor that led to the massive increase in the R&D and production.
     
  3. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Make of this what you will

    !st Panzer Division, Fall Blau: 28 June, 1942

    Pz II 2
    Pz 38t 10
    Pz III 26
    Pz IV 10

    2nd Panzer Division,
    same date

    Pz II 22
    Pz 38t 33
    Pz III 20
    Pz IV 5

    3rd Panzer Division,
    same date

    Pz II 25
    Pz III 106
    Pz IV 33

    3rd Panzer Division,
    1 july, 1943

    Pz II 7
    Pz III 59
    Pz IV 23

    4th Panzer Division,
    28 June 1942

    Pz II 13
    Pz III 28
    Pz IV 5

    5th Panzer Division,
    same date

    Pz II 26
    Pz III 55
    Pz IV 13

    6th Panzer Division,
    1 July 1943

    Pz II 13
    Pz III 52
    Pz IV 32
    FlamPz 14

    7th Panzer Division, same date

    Pz II 12
    Pz III 55
    Pz Iv 38

    8th Panzer Division,
    28 June 1942

    Pz II 1
    Pz 38t 65
    Pz IV 2

    8th Panzer Division, 1 July, 1943

    Pz II 14
    Pz 38t 3
    Pz III 59
    Pz Iv 22

    9th Panzer Division,
    28 June, 1942

    Pz II 22
    Pz III 99
    Pz Iv 21

    9th Panzer Division,
    1 July, 1943

    Pz II 1
    Pz III 38
    Pz Iv 38

    10th Panzer Division, December 1942 (North Africa)


    Pz II 21
    Pz III 105
    Pz IV 20

    11th Panzer Division, 28 June, 1942

    Pz II 15
    Pz III 110
    Pz Iv 13

    11th Panzer Division,
    1 July, 1943

    Pz II 8
    Pz III 62
    Pz Iv 26

    12th Panzer Division, same date

    Pz II 6
    Pz III 36
    Pz IV 37

    13th Panzer Division, 28 June, 1942

    Pz II 15
    Pz III 71
    Pz IV 12

    14th Panzer Division,
    same date

    Pz II 14
    Pz III 60
    Pz Iv 24

    15th Panzer Division,
    25 May, 1942 (North Africa)

    Pz II 29
    Pz III 134
    Pz IV 22

    15th Panzer Division,
    23 October, 1942

    Pz II 14
    Pz III 87
    Pz Iv 18

    16th Panzer Division,
    28 June, 1942

    Pz II 13
    Pz III 57
    Pz Iv 27

    17th Panzer Division,
    28 June, 1942

    Pz ii 17
    Pz iii 36
    Pz Iv 16

    17th Panzer Division,
    December, 1942

    Pz II 4
    Pz III 29
    Pz IV 32

    18th Panzer Division,
    28 June, 1942

    Pz ii 11
    Pz III 20
    Pz IV 8

    18th Panzer Division,
    1 July 1943

    Pz II 5
    Pz III 30
    Pz Iv 24

    19th Panzer Division.
    28 June, 1942

    Pz II 6
    Pz III 12
    Pz 38t 35
    Pz Iv 4

    19th Panzer Division,
    1 July, 1943

    Pz II 2
    Pz III 38
    Pz Iv 38

    20th Panzer Division,
    28 June, 1942

    Pz II 8
    Pz III 20
    Pz 38t 39
    Pz IV 13

    21st Panzer Division, 25 May, 1942 (North Africa)

    Pz II 29
    Pz III 134
    Pz IV 22

    21st Panzer Division, 23 October, 1942

    Pz II 14
    Pz III 87
    Pz IV 18

    22nd Panzer Division,
    28 June, 1942

    Pz II 28
    Pz III 12
    Pz 38t 114
    Pz Iv 22

    23rd Panzer Division,
    1942-1943

    Pz II 27
    Pz III 84
    Pz IV 17

    24th Panzer Division,
    28 June, 1942

    Pz II 32
    Pz III 91
    Pz IV 32

    Source Wehrmacht Panzer Divisions 1939-45, by Jorge Rosado & Chris Bishop.
     
  4. LJAd

    LJAd Well-Known Member

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    I see that BE does not know the difference between single track and double track ,I expected nothing else .

    About Spain :

    the economic aid :Germany would not be able to give it,of course,I expect the reply :nothing would be impossible for Germany .

    the "possibility" for a German army corps to go (in the winter)from Biarritz to Gibraltar (or via the southern route):the distance Biarritz Gibraltar via Madrid is 1150 km,along the coast some 1400,via Madrid is of course impossible,even today it would be dubious .
    Now,as BE has no notion of it,some questions :

    how long would it take 60000 men (mostly obliged to goose-stepping),400 tanks,400 pieces of artillery and 3000 motor vehicles to go to Gibraltar ? A hint :3 months would be close.

    how much road space would they need ? (some one could explain to him what road space is ?,but very elementary) 400 km would be a minimum

    what would be the condition of the tanks,artillery and motorvehicles,when they would arrive at gibraltar (if would be a better word)? A hint (I am generous today):ready for the old car dump.

    and the condition of the men : not better.

    And,of course,he never has done some thinking on the question how heavy,very heavy artillery could be transported by road,I don't think that there were prime-movers that strong.And,what would happen with the bridges (a lot of them temporary ones) could they carry a tank of 30 tons ?
    Etc,etc

    About the possibility to do the whole thing by rail:the Spanish railways had (and partly still have) a different gauge from the French ones (some one could explain him what a gauge is ?),and,how many trains would be needed to transport 60000 men, 500 tanks,500 pieces of artillery,3000 motor vehicles,ammunition,fuel,..? (I will not give a hint:my generosity has its limits)

    Of course,we know :nothing is impossible for the Germans ....
     
    freebird, von_noobie and belasar like this.

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